Judas Iscariot, What do you think of him?

I kind of go along with the Jesus Christ Superstar approach too, Judas wanted to believe in Christ, but I think he represents those who try to be "good enough" but it isn't good enough. He might have seen John and James and Peter getting so close to Christ and was envious of their connection with him, when he felt like an outsider. It could be that he was mad that he'd give more attention to a tax collector than to him, one of his own tribesman. This is all speculation, but I do think there was a turning point somewhere in Judas' life that took him away from wanting to do it right - and on his own - to wanting to goad Jesus into either action or silence. I think mostly Judas didn't understand that this Christ was the sacrificial lamb, and not the returning king and conqueror.

Oh, and Satan isn't equal to Christ or God... they made him. He was the morning star, one of three archangels. Churchlore says that he was the Angel over the music played in heaven. His downfall was he no longer wanted to be second to God, he wanted to be first. The war in heaven had Michael and Lucifer squaring off and God finally casting out Lucifer and the 1/3 of Angels that followed him. Now here's the tricky mind boggling question. Angels are created beings that were made with no free will of their own. How did Lucifer revolt?

I agree that these reasons are too simple. My point is that it doesn't matter what the precise reason is, it was based on Judas' loss of faith in Jesus as the Messiah. If his faith had been strong, his personal failings would not have been an issue. The Gospels do not explicitly state what the reason was. And that is the only source of information that we have about it.

Just my tuppence.

Andy

No, they don't and that's what makes it annoying and exciting to write about. I have to remain within the context of scripture but I have to extrapolate to create a character.

I believe when all is said and done I will probably include most of these motives. I wonder if we ever do anything based upon one motive only.

I have often felt insecurity is the root of all evil.
Was he insecure in the love of Jesus and therefore God? Insecure in his place within the disciple community? Insecure in his share of eternity and therefore afraid to face the earthly consequesces of being a follower of Jesus? Insecure in Jesus being able to provide for his spiritual and material needs and so started skimming off the top and allowed greed to partially motivate his decisions?

For some reason I just can't get into the greed angle. Is that because money and material things aren't that important to me?

well.. I agree with you Elspeth, it's not only the gospels, we also have psychology and other science that can explain how people react in certain situations.
Insecurity is a good point, someone who is insecure is easy to influence in any way...

I think analizing the motives of Judas will probably yield no better insight than -- but for the Grace of God there would I walk.

I try to see what motivates people to do what they do and sometimes actions just defy explanation.

they might, but whatever Judas' motive was, we can speculate, can't we?

OOOOOHHHHHHH!!!!! That is a good one. It presents an aspect of loss of faith that I never thought of before! That will give me something to ruminate on. Thanks Elspeth. I think that I will bounce that one around our theological study group at church. While giving all due credit to the author, of course!

Personally, I don't really buy this one anymore myself (in spite of what I was taught in Sunday School ), but I feel it has to be considered as a possiblity, simply because we don't really know why he did it. See, I can change my mind about things!

Oh, but of course. Speculation is the spice of life. (there is a commercial jingle in that somewhere ) If it weren't for speculation, philosophers, theologians, meteorologists and tabloid columnists would have no way to earn a living! And to be honest, I have really enjoyed this thread because Judas was a person that I have never really paid a lot of attention to, having concentrated on Paul and Peter, because of their writings. I LOVE it when I have to think!!

Just my tuppence.

Andy

PS: Elspeth, I have found my senior thesis, but the disk is corrupted and I can't pull it up, so I am typing it in again. As soon as I finish it, I will send it to you.

That is exactly what I am going for! Too often in church circles Judas is dismissed as this devil who has no applicability to our lives. And that negates a valuable lesson.

Thank you andylucy! You don't know how nice it is to hear this. Too often I think I annoy people with my questings. (bet you can relate Mirri ) Seems most people don't want their spoonfed, comfortable ideas tampered with. Go figure then why some run from me like the plague.

Anyway - thanking all of you who like to delve deeply. The only way to be alive in my opinion.

And thanks for going to all the effort to retype it. I feel bad putting you through all that work. Hope you're doing it for your own purposes as well. I look forward to reading it. Sure you don't want to read about sewage sludge?

I love annoying people in that way.. I'm a person asking uncomfy questions for a hobby and I love a good theological discussion.

Craig and I had one last night about baptising our child or not. I want it to be able to choose it's own faith but craig thinks his (catholic) relatives will flip if it doesn't get baptised in the right faith, which brings then up the topic: hey I'm lutheran! *grins*

Well, anyway... That's one failure in some christian ways, they say Judas is possessed by the devil/Judas is greedy and that's it, but that seems like they didn't really think about.
People have more than one layer. I don't think someone who risks prosecution to follow a man's radically changing teachings is no simple person.

Andy, I am surprised that insecurity as loss of faith never cropped up in your head! it should have done, we covered it extensively in RE (religious education)

Just found this, a quote of one of my favourite television series Black Adder

Blackadder:
The Scarlet Pimpernel is the most over-rated human being since Judas Iscariot won the A.D.31 'Best Disciple' competition.

(3rd series)

Good ol' Edmund. I absolutely love Blackadder. I have the entire series on DVD. My personal favorite is the third series, set in the Regency period. There is just something so utterly despairing in Edmund's demeanor, and of course Baldrick. There just aren't too many people around here that enjoy Blackadder.

Have you ever seen the single episode set during the English Civil War?

Andy
Who just had a plan so cunning you could brush your teeth with it!

I can tell you this Aon from experience. If you do have your child baptised that is all well and good, when that child gets to the age where he/she can think for himself/herself that child will more than likely choose his/her own faith. I have seeen this more than once. I know people that were raised as Catholics and then converted over to the Baptist faith and vice versa. You can read on this board individuals that were raised in the church and have lost all faith in the christian church. I hope I haven't confused you too much!

maggiemahone1

hehe you mean Blackadder: the Cavalier Years? I got everything concerning Blackadder and I can't decide on a favourite series, it starts from series 2 on. They were repeating the whole series three on telly last night. I love the episode with the actors and the one in which he kills the scarlet pimpernel (both of them).
My favourite episode of all is goodbyeee though. It's funny and it's sad. I love it.

Ever watched Back & Forth? (that's the one with the time machine) I love it!


Maggie, I'm against baptising the child because of exactly that. I'm not much of a religious person, so is Craig but his relatives (all deeply devout catholics) might just flame-grill him

Enter at own risk! - Boy, you weren't kidding!! But I come in peace, so don't shoot!!! cos I've got an itchy trigger finger...

Christ set the example of baptism as complete submersion under water, not by 'sprinkling' upon the head, which is a man-made invention and is not Scriptural.

Should I be blessed with children in the future, I will be wanting them to be baptized following Christ's example, but not at infant stage, but at an age when they can fully understand the important symbolism and meaning of baptism. Only adults were the subject of baptism in the Scriptures. Although I don't accept all the stuff on this following site, here's a neat little article regarding baptism that they have spot on;

http://www.scripturessay.com/ch23.html

This is the way Christ and His Church did it, and seeing that He has set clear examples for his followers (1 Cor 11:1) (1 Peter 2:21) (1 John 1:6), and seeing that He does not change (Heb 13:8), then for me this is the right way.


And Judas? He was a traitorous git, but his actions were not his own (yes, Satan is very real), but like all mankind, he's not yet condemned - he'll get his day in court on Judgement Day.