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> HR3200, What's in it?
Camac
Posted: 20-Aug-2009, 10:13 AM
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SCShamrock;

OK this is getting away from the original topic but here we go. The two gentlemen you mentioned broke the Law. Plain and simple. Public School, is no place for prayer it is for education. Although I have little or no truck with organized religion ,Religious Freedom is the law of the land but the question is whose religion. Who's to say that Christianity is right, or Islam, or Judeaism, or Paganism. When I said a leaning towards Theocracy the point I'm trying to make is that America in General envokes the name of this being far to often. Your law says there shall be a seperation of church and state but that is not the case. How can it when even in elections you want to know what religion a candidate is. It's no-bodies damn business but that person's. A politician makes a speech and ends it "God Bless the United States of America" In your courts and on your money "In God We Trust" The Religious right tries to foist it's beliefs on everyone. Example Abortion. I personally am against it but not on religious grounds but simply by it is wrong with the exception of rape or incest. I am against same sex marriages on the same grounds it just isn't normal. The Law in Canada says that these are legal and until the Law is changed I will go along with it. What consenting adults do is between them and their conscience. No God.
As I said the two you mentioned broke the Law and should be prosecuted. Whether that Law is right or wrong that is up to the jury.


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MacEoghainn 
Posted: 20-Aug-2009, 03:43 PM
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QUOTE (Camac @ 20-Aug-2009, 12:13 PM)
SCShamrock;

OK this is getting away from the original topic but here we go. The two gentlemen you mentioned broke the Law. Plain and simple. Public School, is no place for prayer it is for education. Although I have little or no truck with organized religion ,Religious Freedom is the law of the land but the question is whose religion. Who's to say that Christianity is right, or Islam, or Judeaism, or Paganism.  When I said a leaning towards Theocracy the point I'm trying to make is that America in General envokes the name of this being far to often. Your law says there shall be a seperation of church and state but that is not the case. How can it when even in elections you want to know what religion a candidate is. It's no-bodies damn business but that person's. A politician makes a speech and ends it "God Bless the United States of America" In your courts and on your money "In God We Trust" The Religious right tries to foist it's beliefs on everyone. Example Abortion. I personally am against it but not on religious grounds but simply by it is wrong with the exception of rape or incest. I am against same sex marriages on the same grounds it just isn't normal. The Law in Canada says that these are legal and until the Law is changed I will go along with it. What consenting adults do is between them and their conscience. No God.
As I said the two you mentioned broke the Law and should be prosecuted. Whether that Law is right or wrong that is up to the jury.


Camac

I must disagree. The Constitution, and in this case the First Amendment, is the law of the land. Any court decision depriving any Citizen of their rights under the Constitution is un-constitutional and therefore is not the law in the United States. Any judge who upholds this travesty has violated his/her oath and should removed from the bench.

The way the ACLU is playing this game is they're trying to end around the Constitution by getting these guys charged with what is basically contempt of court, not "praying without permission". But once again if the original court order is un-constitutional anything that depends on that court order should be un-constitutional also.

Here's the First Amendment of the US Constitution: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

George Washington said this about military service: "When we assumed the Soldier, we did not lay aside the Citizen." The same idea applies to government employees. These me did not give up their 1st Amendments rights when they took those jobs!


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Patch 
Posted: 20-Aug-2009, 03:55 PM
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OUR country was founded on Christian principles. We are guaranteed the right to speak and worship as we wish. There is no guarantee that we will NOT hear speech or prayers that we do not agree with. I do not support Islam but I do not expect that I will never hear Islamic prayers. Basically, grow up and act like adults. Prayer is guaranteed by the Constitution any place where someone wants to pray.

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Patch 
Posted: 21-Aug-2009, 02:31 PM
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It seems obama has "guaranteed" that his health care bill will pass. This will bear watching as I suspect he will plumb new depths. It will also continue to drag him down in the polls.

Also, T. Kennedy has asked that the law be changed "AGAIN" to allow for his senate seat to be quickly should he "need" to step down. It was recently changed to prevent a R house member from gaining a seat. Now T. wants it changed back. That certainly holds the law in low esteem!

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Camac
Posted: 21-Aug-2009, 02:39 PM
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Patch;

When one is rich and powerful (albeit illgotten wealth) one tends to believe that the Law can always be circumvented. Perhaps especially if one is named Kennedy.



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Patch 
Posted: 21-Aug-2009, 02:52 PM
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Yes, you are right.

When the law is changed because it is the will of the people, so be it! However one has to wonder when that will changes so often.

I have never known "rich and powerfull" so I can not speak with authority on the subject.

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Camac
Posted: 21-Aug-2009, 03:21 PM
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Patch;

I have know two very rich and powerful men and suffice it to say that I will not speak ill of the dead.


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Patch 
Posted: 21-Aug-2009, 03:39 PM
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I understand!

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Antwn 
Posted: 21-Aug-2009, 04:04 PM
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QUOTE (MacEoghainn @ 20-Aug-2009, 04:43 PM)
The way the ACLU is playing this game is they're trying to end around the Constitution by getting these guys charged with what is basically contempt of court, not "praying without permission". But once again if the original court order is un-constitutional anything that depends on that court order should be un-constitutional also.


I guess the last 40 years of Supreme Court jurisprudence on this subject is irrelevant. Its a question of whether the school sanctions and/or coerces participation in prayer by all, not whether individual students can pray - that's been upheld by the SC as long as its not disruptive to school activities. Anyone can pray whenever they want and no one is forbidden, however there's a distinction to be made when public schools sanction, coerce or lead prayers. For a brief look at precedent --

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/rel_li...c=school_prayer

In this particular case, the school handbook was quoted in the article as asking teachers to "'embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every Christian virtue. " Inculcate. Obviously that's much more than even the promotion of Christianity, or the impression of its merits by example, it's coercion plain and simple, and for a public school, far exceeds its educational purview.


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Antwn 
Posted: 21-Aug-2009, 04:05 PM
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We're off topic here, if a monitor wants to move this to another thread it might be appropriate.
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SCShamrock 
Posted: 21-Aug-2009, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 21-Aug-2009, 05:05 PM)
We're off topic here, if a monitor wants to move this to another thread it might be appropriate.

As the person who started the thread, all I can say is I don't mind. Consider it a bunch of us sitting in the back room of the Olive Garden. We've eaten their over-priced, mediocre food and are enjoying some libations and conversations. Cheers, glad you're here. beer_mug.gif cheers.gif beer_mug.gif


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SCShamrock 
Posted: 26-Aug-2009, 07:49 PM
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CONSIDERATIONS.—In conducting the study, the Secretary shall consider approaches such as—
A.) creating a new code (or codes) and payment amount (or amounts) under the fee schedule in section 1848 of the Social Security Act (in a budget neutral manner) for services furnished by an appropriate physician who sees an individual within the first week after discharge from a hospital or critical access hospital;
(B.) developing measures of rates of readmission for individuals treated by physicians;
(C.) applying a payment reduction for physicians who treat the patient during the initial admission that results in a readmission; and
(D.) methods for attributing payments or payment reductions to the appropriate physician or physicians.


Here's another excerpt from the House's healthcare reform bill. They actually are planning to decide what a physician can make, and how much he/she cannot make based on circumstances which may or may not be under that physician's control. Payment reduction....that results in a readmission.
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Patch 
Posted: 27-Aug-2009, 02:12 AM
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I just heard that they now want physicians to support the bill. From discussions with my physicians it seems to be not too likely to happen.

Price regulation only serves to dry up the supply. Remember the long lines and fights at the gas pumps some years ago.

The bill is not about health care but people control!

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SCShamrock 
Posted: 29-Aug-2009, 09:23 AM
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This guy gets it. He is saying much of what has been said at the town hall meetings by concerned Americans who get lambasted and labeled "Astroturfers"

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Posted: 30-Aug-2009, 03:42 AM
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Back to the original post about illegal aliens getting so called Obamacare.

Illegal immigrants are specifically excluded from coverage. Of course, this means that they will continue to get their healthcare from expensive emergency rooms, so that may not actually be a good thing.

The section on page 50 of HR 3200 aligns Health Insurance Exchange policies with other laws currently in effect, such as the Public Health Service Act, State law, and ERISA. Health care cannot trump other laws already in effect.

" According to America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009, Page 143, Line 3, Section 246: "No Federal Payment for Undocumented Aliens. Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States." (see http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf...Text-071409.pdf )

Both the House and Senate versions of President Obama’s health care reform plans contain passages explicitly excluding illegal immigrants from receiving federal money to purchase health insurance from either a private or government-run health plan.(see http://www.cnsnews.com/public/Content/Arti...px?rsrcid=49930 )


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