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Celtic Radio Community > Polls > Confederate Memories


Posted by: Macfive 11-Nov-2003, 05:55 PM
On this Veterans day I thought it might be interesting to get peoples feelings on the status of the memorials for Confederate soldiers who died during the Civil War. Seems to me that lately there is a push to completely wipe the culture of the south and of the Confederacy completely from our society. School names that have stood for a hundred years are being changed from famous leaders of the South during the Civil War.

Many people in the Civil War had no choice which side they fought on - North or South - it was a matter of what boat they took from Ireland, England or Scotland on where they landed and where they fought. My ancestor who immigrated from Scotland was headed to North Carolina - he ended up shipwrecked off the coast of PEI. Perhaps I would not be here today if he had landed at his destination.

It is not my intent to bring up the issue of Slavery. That to me, whether it was in America, in England, in Germany or in Egypt was wrong and there is no question about that. My real intent of this post is to ponder the question if confederate soliders are honored and memorialized less than their union counterparts.

Posted by: kidclaymore 11-Nov-2003, 06:21 PM
I think we should honor the confederate soldiers, not because I live in the south,and have all my life, but because for right or wrong they fought for what they belived. They were all americans.

Posted by: kidclaymore 11-Nov-2003, 06:50 PM
I just had an argument with my wife over this topic. She doesn't think we should honor this soldiers because they fought for slavery. But as I said before they fought for what they thought was right. It doesn't matter what war they fought in whether it was the civil war, WW1, WW2, Vietnam, or the Gulf war, they deserve to be honored.

Posted by: Elspeth 11-Nov-2003, 08:57 PM
Gee, kid, hope you're not sleeping on the couch over this one. laugh.gif

Being a Northerner, I have to say I'm a bit of a sucker for the romanticism of the whole 'lost cause' ideal.

But that aside, to do anything other than present the entire story is wrong. I want my children to learn the entire truths of history, not just the comfortable ones.

We were a country divided over some fundamental ideals. And there were significant reasons for that division, otherwise a war wouldn't have been fought over it. And there were many, many reasons other than slavery. I don't know the stats, but I would venture to guess the vast majority of those fighting for the Confederacy never owned a slave in their life. And more than likely didn't particularily condone slavery.

Somewhere recently the question was raised if America had ever been under siege or occupied. The easy answer was no. The response was tell that to a southerner.

Those monuments and names are part of the culture and should remain. In 1861, men went to war. Considering the education of the times, I would have to guess most had only a slight idea of what the 'cause' was. The did what they were told was their duty.

Where I live many places, rivers, etc. are named after the Native peoples who first lived here. I know it isn't comparing apples to apples, but what if some day it became no longer 'pc' to use those names. And everything was changed to 'white bread' names. (meaning, bland, boring and safe) Is it ever all right to just ignore entire sections of our history and heritage?

The Civil War happened and every man who fought did what he felt to be his duty should be honored for that.

I don't mean to stir any international waters, but I wonder if any of those living in Germany can tell us how those who fought in WWII are honored. For to say that Confederate soldiers shouldn't be honored because they fought for slavery seems similiar to saying those German soldiers who fought in WWII shouldn't be honored because they fought for the Holocaust.

Nothing is ever that simple. Most conflicts are decided upon by a handful of men (and now women too). Those who do the fighting and the dying are only doing what has been asked of them. They don't get to decide. They can only pray their leaders know what they are doing.

Sorry, long answer. But to be honest, I'd rather my child went to a high school named after Jefferson Davis than William Jefferson Clinton. (sorry, editorializing and being flip)

However, I don't know that it is appropriate to have a flag displayed in public buildings that represents oppression to many. Or public buildings named after those seen as the leaders of that oppression. Would it be appropriate to expect Jews to attend Himmler High in Germany? From that standpoint I can understand the push for change.

Sorry, I just argued both sides of the coin.

Posted by: andylucy 11-Nov-2003, 11:37 PM
QUOTE (kidclaymore @ Nov 11 2003, 06:50 PM)
She doesn't think we should honor this soldiers because they fought for slavery. But as I said before they fought for what they thought was right.


Exactly right. My great x3 grandfather fought with the 3rd Kentucky. He was not a slave owner. He didn't know anyone who was a slave owner. For these guys, the fight was over the level of Federal control over state governments. They fought for what they believed to be right.

They should be honored, as should the British and German troops who fell during the American War of Independence and the War of 1812. The troops should be honored for their sacrifice, even though (to the best of my recollection) no English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish Regiment in existence today has any battle honors from these two conflicts on their colours.


Just my tuppence.

Andy

Posted by: silverdragon 11-Nov-2003, 11:47 PM
Hmmm... and I dared to be amused today by songs of the old Argyle-MacDonald feud. unsure.gif I forgot for a moment that we in the States have our own old open wounds.

Posted by: TheCarolinaScotsman 12-Nov-2003, 01:49 AM
Yes, we should honor our confederate soldiers. Most were fighting, not for slavery, but for their state, which, in the south was considered a soverign entity in free association with other states. Most southerners were not slave owners. All of my ancestors were from North or South Carolina; none had slaves; in fact, most thought slavery was evil, but they fought for the south. Four great-grandfathers, three gg-grandfathers, numerous "cousins" and "uncles". Some killed, many wounded, some taken POW. All were honorable men fighting to protect their "homeland". Later generations descended from this noble group of men were threatened by the KKK because of their stand on civil rights. The same family, the same values. War is almost always evil, and there are always some on both sides who wallow in that evil, but the men who fight for their homes, families and country should be remembered and honored.

Posted by: Arianrhod 12-Nov-2003, 07:11 AM
Being first Generation myself.. angel_not.gif
I feel like perhaps, I really shouldnt say anything here......
But then, I share my life and home with a 100% Scot , born and raised in N Carolina , who served his Country in the Coast Guard for 12 years..
You can imagine the dinner conversation wink.gif ..

I have to say yes here.. and I do think the slavery issue muddies the waters..
I feel these men were fighting for hearth and home !
More so than any politcal agenda..

At Tartan day this year, it was my pleasure to hear a re enactor , tell the story of one of the Scottish Regimines march from Carlise to Fort Pitt, places I can pass on any given day .. I wish I had taped this man, he was fantastic ... and I wish you all could hear him.. his first party rendition of how it all happened, was facinating..
So much more so then from out of a book..

Growing up around places like Fort Ligoner, and Fort Pitt. gave me a sense of history , hearing this man speak, let me live a small peice of it..

Even going to The Pennsic war, and living in the Middle Ages for two weeks a year.
It gives you an IDEA of what it was like, but , we know, at the end of the day, anyone slain on the feild that day, will be dancing and drinking that night smile.gif
And that we go back to flush toilets and air conditioning, and all the other modern conveniences of the 20th Century ..
Its a vacation... after hearing that man speak, I will never gripe about anything at Pennsic again ...

ALL of these men deserve honor .. in my eyes ..

In Service to the Dream,
Paula

Posted by: kidclaymore 12-Nov-2003, 04:34 PM
Well said, Gang. No I'm not sleeping on the couch, We have been married for a long time and don't let such things as this, get to us.

Posted by: maryellen 12-Nov-2003, 07:46 PM
To dispute most high school history texts, the Civil War was not based on slavary, but political moves when incorporating new states into the union.
I don't think that those that fought for evil should be honored. Those that fought for their homes, for freedom and for good should be honored no matter which side they were on. I know I disagree with a lot of you, thats just how I see it.

Posted by: barddas 13-Nov-2003, 09:55 AM
The war between the states was only partially about slavery. It was also about states rights as well.
They were Americans. North or south. That doesn't matter. Like Mcfive said, alot of those boys fighting depended on where they got of the ship and were drafted.
I know it's a touchy subject. It's an ugly thing. But no one complains about the Romans having slaves, or that the English owned slaves... At one point in history someone was a slave to someone else. Color isn't the issue.... it is the human right. None of us were there so we can only read a biaised version of it anyway.....

Posted by: barddas 13-Nov-2003, 09:59 AM
This just jumped into my head.... The focus on the war between the states has always been taught as slavery.... but what about all of the Native Americans that were slaughtered during/after the war in the plains.... nobody ever speaks/or teaches of that ... Now that is what I see as "evil"

Posted by: RavenWing 13-Nov-2003, 02:55 PM
too true, Jason cry.gif

Posted by: Arianrhod 13-Nov-2003, 09:34 PM
Heh , Jason , is there room on that soap box ?

That is an issue near and dear to my heart..
How the natives of this land were treated ....
I agree it was pure evil....

Slavery was the reason kids were spoon fed in history class , for what the war was about ....They say all news is bias, I think, that can be said for any written word .

In Service to the Dream,
Paula

Posted by: barddas 14-Nov-2003, 07:54 AM
I think it can be non biased if both sides are studied and a rounded conclusion can be obtained.

As long as someone doesn't become emotionally attached to the issue.... Hard thing to do sometimes....

And yes, there is always room on the soapbox.... Just set yer coat over there--------->

laugh.gif

Posted by: Elspeth 14-Nov-2003, 08:51 AM
But as they say, history is written by the victors.

One of the best classes I took in college was an Honors History class were we read two essays, each written about a single even but written from opposing views. Sometimes the same 'facts' were used to prove opposite sides of the case. wink.gif

Paula's right, all words are biased - written, spoken and typed. It is impossible to present the entire picture of anything; only pieces and those pieces have to be sewed together to make a collage. Like taking a photograph, then tearing it into pieces, taping it back together and trying to compare it to the original landscape. It was only a one-dimensional facsimile to begin with and now it's a pieced and patched one. That?s the best we get. Even if we had been there, we would have been experiencing only our tiny corner of the world and wouldn?t have any better perspective on the whole than we do in hindsight.

Makes the whole historical process all the more fascinating because it is never ending.

Posted by: Angel Whitefang (Rider) 14-Nov-2003, 10:36 AM
Every Man Woman and Child who Died during th eCivil War should be Honored. Just as every Man woman and Child who died in 911 should be. They were all Vitums of Governmental Control and circumstance. We should Honor them if nothing else for being Honorable enough to Stand up and FIght for their rights as Human, Americans, Family members & Their Beliefs. There is NO EVIL in THAT!
angel.gif

Posted by: RavenWing 14-Nov-2003, 11:00 AM
Whether the PC police want to admit it or not, the Civil War was and still is a big part of Southern Culture. It has shaped them to be who they are as a group and it should not be forgotten.

Posted by: barddas 14-Nov-2003, 11:51 AM
QUOTE (RavenWing @ Nov 14 2003, 01:00 PM)
Whether the PC police want to admit it or not, the Civil War was and still is a big part of Southern Culture. It has shaped them to be who they are as a group and it should not be forgotten.

That's a very true point Mary. I think that some of the older folks still hold a certain resentment to the North.

I look at this way.... those men, and boys fighting were all somebodies babies.... They should be remembered if not for just that....at the very least. They had mommas, and daddies that loved them....


I think I might becoming redundant.... wink.gif unsure.gif

Posted by: Arianrhod 16-Nov-2003, 12:48 AM
If you are . at least you are consistant ! laugh.gif

I can't help BUT feel that way Elsbeth, I am glad you agree..

And I think we are all on the same page Raven Wing..
We are just saying there was MORE to the war, then the slavery issue .

In Service to the Dream,
Paula

Posted by: andylucy 16-Nov-2003, 06:38 AM
QUOTE (barddas @ Nov 14 2003, 07:54 AM)


As long as someone doesn't become emotionally attached to the issue.... Hard thing to do sometimes....



That is the very reason that I do not reenact the American Civil War... There's just too many folks in my neck of the woods that don't realize that the War of Northern Aggression is over and the South lost. wink.gif Even today, you still see almost as many Stars and Bars flying as you do Stars and Stripes. sad.gif

People may chastise me for being a "dirty redcoat" in my American Revolution persona but they don't spit at me (except for some PETA wackos at an event once. But that's another story biggrin.gif ). It happens at CW events all the time. Sad.

Just my tuppence (only a ha' penny after stoppages though laugh.gif )

Andy

Posted by: Annabelle 16-Nov-2003, 10:28 AM
I appreciate those who stand for Something
It's those who stand for nothing that bother me! LOSERS!

Let's get something straight to begin with..All Wars are about Money!

Now with the Civil War, this was not just a war based on SLAVERY as many of us get side tracked...the war was one of ECONOMICS!

Let me explain..........

Back then 4 Southern States here in America paid over 70% of the tax revenues America was using to build their country on at the time.

Why the Civil War came about is there was a high Tarriff on Imported goods from England then. By placing this Extremely high tarrif on these goods it forced the Southern States to buy their goods from the Northern manufactures. Most of the slaves that were brought over to sell here in America were brought in my Norther Merchants who found a market for their Product (slaves) in the South as the southern manufacturers were trying to off set their expense in producing goods.

Slavery was NOT the primary issue but the one most people center the "Civil War" to be about...

If everyone will look at the Southern "Rebel" Flag you will notice it's basic flag begins with the "St Andrew"s flag (Scotland) as the beginning of the design of the Rebel flag..

If you don't believe me down load a copy of the Rebel flag and you will see for yourself...

I agree with Kid and Mac...the side you fought on was decided along time ago...and what direction your family migrated once they came to the Americas.

I believe all men who fight for this country, either on our soil or abroad should be honored cause they fought for ME!

One of the things I really believe is wrong, is the fact we as people do not pull together to fight those who want to undo the past.

By changing those schools names, or highways...I'm tired of acting like our pasts do not exists...I'm tired of considering personal rights....I don't believe I have to sacrifice History for someone else's personal rights....well how about mine and my choice to keep them...where are my rights and where is the honor to my family members who died for this great country?

Sometimes people say those things are offensive to others, well wiping out history I find more offensive...we can't change the past..We can only learn and try to improve...If those who really believe in the past being offensive, why do they mimic THEIR historical culture with clothing here in the US, cause their trying to reclaim something they lost along the way. And that's ok, but when they change history they hurt me and others who had family die here in other battles....so don't expect me to give up my history for someone else...it's just not going to happen.

I'll give you an example: The other day I had a lady call me on a cross reference phone book for information on my business. When she got to the last question she asked me was I MINORITY owned? I said yes..she then asked the nationality she asked me was I white, asian, black, hebrew or other.
I said Other! She then asked what that was? I told her Scottish in my heavy Scottish Accent...she got very quiet...she said Ms.A, do you really consider that to be a minority? (I won't tell you what she was, you can guess for yourself and I don't want to OFFEND anyone) I told her it counts about as much as her's does...to say the least...It let her know everyone counts! Everyone has rights! And I'll get up and do something about it too.

When you see people petition to change something you don't believe is right, don't sit on your ARSE and complain, get up and do something, or shut up!

The Squeeky wheel, gets the oil...not the one that run's smoothly...so use your voice...that is the reason God gave you one...you have the right to hold to your heritage as well as the next fella..That' s what made the US a great country...the ability to speak.

Yes, I'm very passionate about equality for everyone...I don't care a flip about color, race, royalty or other...If you have to tear someone else down to make yourself feel better, than we'll get you a number for a good Doctor.

Let's all respect each other while we are here on earth...our time is short so live life and enjoy being together.

Annabelle

Posted by: andylucy 17-Nov-2003, 02:47 AM
QUOTE (Annabelle @ Nov 16 2003, 10:28 AM)

By changing those schools names, or highways...I'm tired of acting like our pasts do not exists...I'm tired of considering personal rights....I don't believe I have to sacrifice History for someone else's personal rights....well how about mine and my choice to keep them...where are my rights and where is the honor to my family members who died for this great country?

when they change history they hurt me and others who had family die here in other battles....so don't expect me to give up my history for someone else...it's just not going to happen.


Annabelle, I agree with you 100%!

(Mounting soapbox).

Revisionist history is all the rage these days. I understand that there are many different interpretations of history (HIS600, Intro to Historiography, scarred me deeply biggrin.gif ). But to completely erase whole blocks of inconvenient facts just because they might offend someone is inexcusable.

If you want to interpret them and put your own particular spin on them, that is fine. That is playing by the rules. That is what the study of historiography is about, determining the views and prejudices of a given author. But when you just decide to forget that certain events happened or certain people once lived, to me that is cultural/historical genocide. That is tantamount to taking a bulldozer through an archaeological site just because you don't think the people that once lived there were important. And for every generation exposed to "altered history" the greater the damage done to our collective memory.


(Dismounting soapbox).

Just my tuppence.

Andy

Posted by: Elspeth 18-Nov-2003, 09:01 AM
Why Annabelle, darling, you found your brain! I knew you knew where it was all along and was pretending to ahve lost it to fool all of us. biggrin.gif
You go girl. And I'm a minority too. I'm the only one who picks up anything in this house or cleans a toliet. That makes me a minority in my book. laugh.gif


Posted by: Annabelle 18-Nov-2003, 04:41 PM
Well was that good for everyone...I'm worn out...putting my brain back in the closet now...clunk!

Don't make me use it for a long time...

Annabelle

Posted by: maryellen 18-Nov-2003, 08:05 PM
I'm sure my favorite people will attack me again after I say this, but here goes...
There is a general idea in this thread that anyone that stands for something should be honored. I do not see how the hijackers on 9-11, who risked their lives to stand for something, should be honored. I do not see how Nazi Germany, firmly believing to eliminating everyone but the Aryan race, should be honored. If you think it is right to honor them, then go do so.

"Please show respect and appreciation to alternative views posted here. We appreciate your consideration"

Posted by: Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 19-Nov-2003, 07:50 AM
As the Commander of Sons of Confederate Veterans Guy-Thurman Camp, and Vice Commander of Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln Camp, Rochester, NY, I find this thread most interesting. Most of my own Civil War ancestors were in Scott County, VA, an area in which feelings were deeply mixed. The 64th Virginia (Mounted) Infantry/Cavalry, CSA, in which many of my ancestors served, has been described by some as being largely composed of men with pro-Union sentiments. The 65th Kentucky Enrolled Militia (US) in which my gg-grandfather Bird Franklin served, was described in a letter written by its commanding officer as being untrustworthy because so many of the men were pro-secession.
As has been pointed out by others, slavery was not the overriding issue for most of the troops. For most CSA soldiers, the issue was protecting their homes and families from northern aggression. For most Union soldiers, the issue was preserving the Union. We should not forget that four slave states--Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, and Missouri--stayed in the Union, albeit only through extra-legal (dare I say dictatorial?) actions by President Lincoln. The "free" state of New Jersey still had more slaves than the "slave" state of Delaware. One thing many history books conveniently overlook is the northern participation in slavery. One of the standard cautions in geneology is that you may discover unpleasant things about your family. In my own case, I discovered that some of my Long Island Thorne ancestors owned slaves in the 1600's (as reflected in wills and tax record). In addition, the NY branch of my Livingston line made a fortune in the slave trade. I suspect that anyone--north or south--whose family has been in the country long enough will find similar unpleasantness with enough research.
There was never a formal end to the WBTS, and in some areas the grudges created by the war continued for a long time. For example, my 2d cousin Captain Bill Strong, 14th Ky Cav (US) was shot from ambush by some of his former Confederate neighbors in 1897. In my view, there are many who will not consider the work begun by President Lincoln finished until all traces of the old South have been obliterated--what amounts to cultural genocide.
It is certainly heartening to see so many on this forum supporting the honorable men, women, and children on both sides of this tragic conflict, which in my view could have avoided had the moderates on both sides been able to keep everyone, including the hotheads, talking to one another.

Posted by: barddas 19-Nov-2003, 08:00 AM
QUOTE (maryellen @ Nov 12 2003, 09:46 PM)
To dispute most high school history texts, the Civil War was not based on slavary, but political moves when incorporating new states into the union.
I don't think that those that fought for evil should be honored. Those that fought for their homes, for freedom and for good should be honored no matter which side they were on. I know I disagree with a lot of you, thats just how I see it.

I think with this post, maryellen you made your point clear. I do not believe ANYONE said "lets honor the hijackers from 9/11." That was not a war situation. That was a terrorist act of agression.
HUGE difference.

And as far as you "being attacked" by your "favorites". When open comments like that are made you are just stiring the pot, and making yourself a target, or throwing out a line waiting for a bite.... If you don't bait people they are less likely to "attack" your comments.....

If you would like to comment on this please PM me.... Lets keep the thread to the subject.

Thanks

Posted by: barddas 19-Nov-2003, 08:20 AM
QUOTE (maryellen @ Nov 18 2003, 10:05 PM)
*** This is an edit from above post****


There is a general idea in this thread that anyone that stands for something should be honored.

I do not see how Nazi Germany, firmly believing to eliminating everyone but the Aryan race, should be honored. If you think it is right to honor them, then go do so.

"Please show respect and appreciation to alternative views posted here. We appreciate your consideration"

I think you are missing the point. We are *only* discussing the American war between the states. There has been no mention of WW2 at all. Why bring it up? It is a totally different topic and situation....

I'm not picking on you, I just think you are jumping to conclusions to things that have not even been discussed.... Because I have not seen any mention of other wars ( with the exception of re-enactors) posted....Just an observation.... that's all.


Posted by: Annabelle 19-Nov-2003, 08:42 AM
That is the only problem with heated discussions is the fact something always triggers discussing other non-related topics into an already started thread...that emotional trigger always carries it's own baggage and is sometimes injected into a discussion of another topic...so hard to seperate issues sometimes...

So Let's discuss Confederate Memories ! Everyone matters here!

Annabelle

Posted by: barddas 19-Nov-2003, 08:55 AM
QUOTE (Annabelle @ Nov 19 2003, 10:42 AM)
That is the only problem with heated discussions is the fact something always triggers discussing other non-related topics into an already started thread...that emotional trigger always carries it's own baggage and is sometimes injected into a discussion of another topic...so hard to seperate issues sometimes...

So Let's discuss Confederate Memories ! Everyone matters here!

Annabelle

I agree Annabelle.....

It's not my intent to hurt anyones feelings... I just wanted to keep a focused discussion. And WW2 is a a different set of circumstances,issues, and can not really be comparible....

That's all....
But thanks for bringing that to light wink.gif

Posted by: maryellen 19-Nov-2003, 12:49 PM
My apologies. It is not my intent to go off subject. When previous generalities were being put forth, I think they should be applicable in other situations or considered invalid. Discussing how we (or other countries) treat other wars may lend insight to the question about how the Confederate soldiers should be treated. I don't think the US is the only one with this underlying problem.

Posted by: barddas 19-Nov-2003, 02:58 PM
Fair enough....
as long as it loops back to the original topic, so that it doesn't get too far out of memory... cool.gif



Posted by: Annabelle 19-Nov-2003, 10:26 PM
The south had some of the best military stategist during the war...VMI where most military men trained were known for their tactical theories during this time period.

My Great Uncle, General John B. Gordon rode for the Confederacy...he was a Capt of a calvary unit origionally from Ga, Tenn and Northern Al and later to be called "The Raccoon Roughs" they were mostly mountain men.

He ultimately became one of Lee's 12 Generals..and became note worthy after the Battle of Appomattox. After the war he became a Senator for the state of Ga.

Up around Round Oak, Ga which is North of Macon, you can still find old Bullets in the Trees around the Methodist and Bapt churches from the Civil War...

Annabelle


Posted by: Elspeth 20-Nov-2003, 06:06 AM
Actually, on the first page, I did reference WWII, comparing fighting for slavery to fighting for all that Nazism represented. And just as I don't think most Confederates fought to preserve slavery, I don't believe most Germans fought to promote the atrocities perpetrated by the Nazi leadership.

There seems to be two questions on the table here. One is should the soldiers be honored. Most every post says yes. The second is the more difficult. It is should the ?ideals? of the Confederacy be preserved by keeping the names and displaying the flag in public places, etc.

This, to me, is the stickier subject. And I can?t help question ? is there not a comparison to WWII? Is the Confederate flag to the descendent of a slave as hideous as is a swastika to a descendent of the Holocaust? If the answer is no, then it?s about heritage. If the answer is yes, then there in lies the problem.

I do understand those in the south resenting a handful that wish to change their history. But putting myself in other shoes, if I had grown up hearing stories of my ancestors being enslaved and abused, I wouldn?t want to walk into my county courthouse and be confronted by the flag of those who condoned such actions.

It?s a sticky one. I think every soldier who sacrifices should be honored. But I?m not sure every culture should be. Remembered yes - kept in the history books yes - but not honored.

Posted by: Raven_Whitefang 20-Nov-2003, 06:39 AM
Being a "Suthrener" my self as I know alot of you others are and (possibly) having family from the Civil War era and having them basically wiped off the page would be seriously F***** up. Yes, things then happened for wrong ends, and yes, most of the soldiers that fought were there to uphold states rights, and yes others were there because of other motives. I believe that right or wrong, it is in the Heart of the person honoring whomever they choose to is the right thing to do. I know that for myself to not honor the ones there for the right reasons would be like denying myself of who I am, and trying to hide the fact that I am from the South.

Posted by: barddas 20-Nov-2003, 08:13 AM
QUOTE (Elspeth @ Nov 20 2003, 08:06 AM)


I do understand those in the south resenting a handful that wish to change their history. But putting myself in other shoes, if I had grown up hearing stories of my ancestors being enslaved and abused, I wouldn?t want to walk into my county courthouse and be confronted by the flag of those who condoned such actions.


I see your point Elspeth.... But it has happened throughout history..I'm not saying it is right. But, it is a fact. What about the Scottish folks that were removed from thier country by the English during the Clearences, same with the Irish and so on.... The Irish got Slack in this country up until the early 20th century. Or why don't Christians show resentment to Itallians???? Italy was home of the Roman Empire which we all know persicuted Christians... Do we Change the Name of the Colosium(sp) because Christians were used as play toys for Roman entertainment?????

If we start changing the names of a school to be PC, will it ever stop???? Just because the name of a building is changed.... it doesn't fix the problem....
We as a community, town, country can only do that.... And unforntunately, most people are not like all of us here... We think and use our brains....Many people just mearly exist....( not all but many...) wink.gif

Posted by: Elspeth 20-Nov-2003, 08:24 AM
Being a Northerner and as close to impartial as any American can be, I am finding this thread interesting. We have no family tales of CW heroes. My Anabaptist ancestors didn't do war and the other ones were never talked about.

I would venture to guess from the standpoint of most northerners, the Civil War is a 4 year period they read about in history books and not much else.

So, I find it fascinating to see the subject still elicits such passionate responses in the descendents of those who fought for the South. And as one who works with words, I can?t help but notice the difference in the terminologies. I call it the Civil War for that is what I was taught. Many others have referred to it as the War Between the States, the War of Northern Aggression and I forget if there are others. It appears even after almost 150 years the bitterness still persists. I knew that was the case in the first half of the last century. I guess I am surprised that it is still true now, considering we are not only a national society but bordering on a global one.

And I have to wonder if this is a function not so much of the war itself as it is the horrendous mistakes in ?reconstruction? later. The war, I think, we could have overcome if Lincoln had lived to fulfill his dream of welcoming the southerners back into the fold as brothers. Putting behind and moving on. However, he didn?t live and those who were responsible for policy after his death wanted to make the south ?pay?. And so almost 150 years later the division still persists.

Interesting that the policies of reconstruction were established about the same time as the policies for Indian Affairs. Washington blew them both. Not one of our most glorious periods in history.

Posted by: andylucy 20-Nov-2003, 08:27 AM
QUOTE (Elspeth @ Nov 20 2003, 06:06 AM)
Is the Confederate flag to the descendent of a slave as hideous as is a swastika to a descendent of the Holocaust?



Hmmmm. Interesting point, Elspeth. thumbs_up.gif I think that there might be something of a time factor involved here. There are still people alive who remember the death camps of the Nazis. There are no ex-slaves left alive, no children of ex-slaves (born after slavery) and precious few grandchildren of ex-slaves. There is no living connection (as anthropologists term it) between the American black population today and slavery, in spite of the rumblings of social agitators.

Should the soldiers of the Confederacy be honored? Absolutely. They fought for freedom from what they perceived as foreign intrusion. Had they succeeded, Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee would be as revered as Thomas Jefferson and George Washington (I didn't mention that earlier unpleasantness of the 1770's biggrin.gif ).

Should everything they stood for be honored and cherished? Of course not. I say take what was good from the culture of the Old South (politeness, cooking, music, literature, etc) and leave behind the bad (slavery, rigid class structure). If someone wants to fly the Stars and Bars, let 'em. If they want to fly the Bonny Blue Flag. Let 'em. Everyone, and I mean everyone, should be able to take pride in their ancestors, even if they may have stood then for something not socially acceptable today. wink.gif [Incidentally, Elspeth, I know that you were not implying this in your post. I just got on a ranting roll. Sorry.]

Just my tuppence.

Andy

Posted by: Elspeth 20-Nov-2003, 08:39 AM
QUOTE (barddas @ Nov 20 2003, 09:13 AM)
QUOTE (Elspeth @ Nov 20 2003, 08:06 AM)


I do understand those in the south resenting a handful that wish to change their history. But putting myself in other shoes, if I had grown up hearing stories of my ancestors being enslaved and abused, I wouldn?t want to walk into my county courthouse and be confronted by the flag of those who condoned such actions.


I see your point Elspeth.... But it has happened throughout history..I'm not saying it is right. But, it is a fact. What about the Scottish folks that were removed from thier country by the English during the Clearences, same with the Irish and so on.... The Irish got Slack in this country up until the early 20th century. Or why don't Christians show resentment to Itallians???? Italy was home of the Roman Empire which we all know persicuted Christians... Do we Change the Name of the Colosium(sp) because Christians were used as play toys for Roman entertainment?????

If we start changing the names of a school to be PC, will it ever stop???? Just because the name of a building is changed.... it doesn't fix the problem....
We as a community, town, country can only do that.... And unforntunately, most people are not like all of us here... We think and use our brains....Many people just mearly exist....( not all but many...) wink.gif

I guess the visual I have is in walking into a courthouse that is displaying a Confederate flag. The point is it is a US government building in 2003, not a Confederate one in 1861. And the US government is supposed to represent all under one flag.
There is still all the room in the world for individuals to honor or celebrate their heritage, just not in a place that is supposed to be representative of all.

It's a sticky subject for sure. If it weren't there would be no debate.

Posted by: andylucy 20-Nov-2003, 08:39 AM
QUOTE (Elspeth @ Nov 20 2003, 08:24 AM)


And I have to wonder if this is a function not so much of the war itself as it is the horrendous mistakes in ?reconstruction? later. The war, I think, we could have overcome if Lincoln had lived to fulfill his dream of welcoming the southerners back into the fold as brothers. Putting behind and moving on. However, he didn?t live and those who were responsible for policy after his death wanted to make the south ?pay?. And so almost 150 years later the division still persists.

Interesting that the policies of reconstruction were established about the same time as the policies for Indian Affairs. Washington blew them both. Not one of our most glorious periods in history.



I am never a fan of "what if" history, but I feel that you are right, Elspeth. If Lincoln's wishes had been carried out, the whole carpetbagger era could have been avoided.

And don't get me started on what the gov't did (does) to Native Americans. sad.gif

Just my tuppence

Andy

Posted by: Elspeth 20-Nov-2003, 08:45 AM
QUOTE (andylucy @ Nov 20 2003, 09:27 AM)
I think that there might be something of a time factor involved here. There are still people alive who remember the death camps of the Nazis. There are no ex-slaves left alive, no children of ex-slaves (born after slavery) and precious few grandchildren of ex-slaves. There is no living connection (as anthropologists term it) between the American black population today and slavery, in spite of the rumblings of social agitators.


Interesting point back Andy. wink.gif
I would have agreed with you earlier, but as I just posted, it is interesting how much passion this subject still elicits in those whose ancestors lived through the war and reconstruction. So, I have to wonder if the descendents of the slave population do not feel the same passionate response.

Oh, if life were easy...... I'm moving to Mayberry...... Oh, wait, they had a Confederate cannon! It's following me even in my escapist fantasies!

Posted by: barddas 20-Nov-2003, 08:46 AM
good points everyone!!!!

My family is from Northern Kentucky. From there it branches to further S.KY, and to Penn. and Virginia. There was never really any talk of north or south ( sounds like a movie??!!!) in my Gparents house... except with Gettysburg. My Grandfathers, Great Grandfather ( I believe or GG, don't remember off hand) settled and established Gettysburg. His name was Samuel Gettys and he opened a Tavern in Adams County, Penn. Which is now historic Gettysburg.

And the reason I call it the war between the states is "Civil War' to me sounds like a couple of chaps smacking one another in the face with gloves saying, "take that you Yankee", "take that you southerner".... War to me is no civil.... I know different meaning but that's how my GPaw, Gettys refered to it... the few times we talked about it....

Posted by: Elspeth 20-Nov-2003, 08:50 AM
I agree! Civil War is definately an oxy-moron! Good point 'old fool'.
They should have settled it with two pairs of gloves.
Or as Lincoln did the one time he was challenged to a duel. He chose cow patties at ten paces.

Posted by: andylucy 20-Nov-2003, 10:00 AM
QUOTE (Elspeth @ Nov 20 2003, 08:50 AM)

Or as Lincoln did the one time he was challenged to a duel. He chose cow patties at ten paces.

What a crappy way to settle a matter of honor!! laugh.gif Is that in the Code Duello?

(Ducking behind cover before the rotten tomatoes and cabbages start flying.)

I agree with y'all. War is never civil. War is rude, violent and nasty. That is what it is for. Hardly civil.

One of the best euphemisms I've heard for the conflict in question is "The Late Unpleasantness." It is elegant yet subtle and understated. thumbs_up.gif While it may be confusing elsewhere, say that in my neck of the woods, and everyone will know what you are referring to.

And Barddas, as with you, there was never any mention of the War, per se, in my family, but the fallout persisted in the form of regionalism. You know, you can't trust Yankees. Yankees are always rude. Yankees think they are so much better than us. You should have seen their faces when I told them I was marrying a Yankee, and a Catholic at that. Heresy! wink.gif

Just my tuppence.

Andy

Posted by: Annabelle 20-Nov-2003, 04:08 PM
yep, I think we should do more for Confederate memorials...Every War makes a mark on our country...and this was another on OUR soil.

Annabelle

Posted by: barddas 20-Nov-2003, 06:12 PM
QUOTE (Elspeth @ Nov 20 2003, 10:50 AM)
I agree! Civil War is definately an oxy-moron! Good point 'old fool'.
They should have settled it with two pairs of gloves.
Or as Lincoln did the one time he was challenged to a duel. He chose cow patties at ten paces.

You said it 'old woman'....


Boy could you imagine reading about that in history class???
What about the re enactors?????? LOL!!!! laugh.gif

Posted by: Annabelle 20-Nov-2003, 10:20 PM
E mentioned a "yes or No" question when comparing the rebel flag being upsetting to those of Black Decendants....

alot of the answers are going to be personal ones. It depends on how close you are to the subject at hand...

Well as an example: should I hate all English for sending my family to the Colonies? Should I explode with hate at the sight of the English flag?
Well, let's look at this objectively cause it's the only logical way to do it...if you are going to speak out of EMOTIONS then we are NOT going to get a logical answer...

when people react out of emotions, logic goes out the door...

No I don't hate others for what happened in the past...how can you hold someone else responsible for something that they had no part in and something that happened long before they were ever born...but you also can not say it didn't happen..it's history...we learn from the past to improve the future..


Annabelle
(ouch, brain hurting now)

Posted by: Annabelle 20-Nov-2003, 10:24 PM
Something else that just occured to me...my Family as they migrated south from Spotsvania Va thru North Carolina to South Carolina To Georgia then to Alabama then to Texas, the generation that settled in SouthCarolina and Georgia were farmers. At one point they owned 1500 slaves...does that make me a bad person cause my gggggg-grandfather was a slave owner. In his wills he left each child a rope bed, horse and several slaves...
is this really my fault. Do I agree with it, no!
But I can't change the times back then..nor was I there.
So unfair to hold me as a horrible person cause My family back then had slaves...I hope you see what I mean.

Annabelle

Posted by: Elspeth 21-Nov-2003, 08:25 AM
QUOTE (barddas @ Nov 20 2003, 07:12 PM)


What about the re enactors?????? LOL!!!! laugh.gif

What a crappy way to spend a weekend! laugh.gif

You and andylucy are cracking me up. I needed a good laugh after I discovered my dog just ate a 1904 edition book I was planning to give as a present. Anyone want a two-year old lab/begal mix? (she's either a legal or a bab) Temper tantrums from my children, my husband and now my dog. Wait, leave the dog, anyone want to take me!
Sorry, majorly off the subject. Let's see need a segue back. Nope, not working.... just quitting while I'm behind. Behind! That's it! Takes me back to crappy and back to cow patties. Back on subject. Woo Hoo! biggrin.gif

Posted by: Pagan 21-Nov-2003, 10:08 AM
A few years ago I lived in Germany. Amazingly beautiful country filled with some of the most friendly and warm people I have ever met. We lived in a small village that while we were there celebrated their 950th year of being a village. In the evening when my husband got home I would go run. My daughters were 4 and 2 at the time and running helped to keep me sane. That and the great wines they have over there! wink.gif Usually, I just ran on a path through the woods and didnt pay attention to much except where my feet were at the moment so that I didn't fall down. Grace is not my middle name! But one particular night he got home well after dark and I couldn't take my normal route so I decided to run through the village. It was raining and dark but there were still people out so my run quickly turned into a walk. In the center of the village was this magnificent gothic church. It was amazing and some event was taking place and the lights where on inside and the stained glass windows were aglow with an inner light and I stood in the rain transfixed by their incredible beauty. Each one was a master piece. Some where of the typical Christian design but there was one that really captured me. It was of two men, soldiers, wounded and one was assisting the other through what was clearly a battle field. There was lettering beneath the figures which unfortunately I didn't understand. But even with out the knowledge of the inscription I had an idea what it meant and it gave me the strangest feeling. The next day I was having coffee with a friend down the street and I told her there was something that I wanted to show her and we walked the short distance to the church and stood before the window. Her name is Martina and she is German and I knew she would be able to explain the window to me. She read the inscription and turned to me and smiled and said...."this is to honor and remember all of the German soldiers who died in the Great War." I was at first stunned and indignant. How could they honor anyone who had served in the atrocities that Germany had visited on mankind? I am sure she recognized the look on my face and knew what I was thinking. Because she then explained that many, maybe not all, but a very large percentage of the men who served the armed services had been forced to do so. Some where seduced by Hitler but most were given no choice. Join or die. Join or we ship your family to a re-education camp. The average German citizen on the street knew nothing of the camps and what happened there. They were just people trying to live their lives. Each soldier that dies was someones child, brother, father, friend. They have the right to be remembered, to be honored. Not for the cause, no, but for the sacrifice they made because they were given no other choice. I tell you this story because the Confederate Soldier has been vilified and bastardized down through history. It wasn't about slavery, or really even secession. It was about money and power. Most of the men fighting fought for the right to live a certain way that had nothing to do with slavery. Most of them were not given a choice but to fight. Those who went to the North to fight for the Union became outlaws to their own families those who fought for the Confederacy became outlaws to a nation. They all have a right to be honored. Not for the cause but for the sacrifice made. Pagan

Posted by: Elspeth 21-Nov-2003, 01:54 PM
So true Pagan, thanks for sharing.
I really was curious how they addressed this in Germany.

I am curious too about the statement as to the Conferderate soldiers being vilified. That has never been my experience in my northern education.

Can you explain more please?

Posted by: maryellen 21-Nov-2003, 06:46 PM
Thanks for the info pagan!
I was wondering that is well. It all comes down to what's in your heart.

Posted by: Annabelle 21-Nov-2003, 09:30 PM
Did anyone ever see the movie "Andersonville" about the Southern prision that they put the northern soldiers in during the war?

It's about 20 minutes from home here and very moving place. They have a computer that you can type into family names and see if anyone was a prisoner or a guard there during the war..
Annabelle

Posted by: scottish2 22-Nov-2003, 05:58 PM
Well I am sort of walking the edge here. I voted no because while Celtic sources did have influence during this period I think we should keep it more Celtic related.

Now as for if it was right or wrong I personally feel the South had every right o leave the union if they chose. I mean if you don't like what is happening do you not have a right to get up and leave? Where is the difference just because it is a state? If the people of said state don't agree with what the federal government is doing they have a right to get out of the union and find their own path. Personally I feel Lincoln and the North were wrong and without the power to force the South to remain. If any member of a Southern state didn't agree with the state they had a right to move north. But any state should and I believe does have every right to leave the union at their own descretion.

Ok off the soap box as this I know is getting political but deals with the poll topic so...

Posted by: Elspeth 22-Nov-2003, 09:25 PM
Scottish 2

I have to confess to a sneaking sympathy with what you said. It just may be hindsight talking, but whenever I hear Lincoln's words on the preservation of the Union being spoken, I can't help but question - why? Thousands upon thousands dead and why? Did it have to happen that way? It does seem the Union was a sort of a contract between the states and if some of the parties wanted to void the contract..... We certainly wouldn't be the nation we are today if that had happened. Then again, who's to say we wouldn't have reunited. Globaly slavery was aready on its way out. It had alread been abolished in the Brittish Empire. It couldn't have lasted into the 20th century. Would we possibly have reunited when we became more of one mind again? Interesting questions.

Posted by: scottish2 22-Nov-2003, 09:34 PM
QUOTE (Elspeth @ Nov 22 2003, 10:25 PM)
Scottish 2

I have to confess to a sneaking sympathy with what you said. It just may be hindsight talking, but whenever I hear Lincoln's words on the preservation of the Union being spoken, I can't help but question - why? Thousands upon thousands dead and why? Did it have to happen that way? It does seem the Union was a sort of a contract between the states and if some of the parties wanted to void the contract..... We certainly wouldn't be the nation we are today if that had happened. Then again, who's to say we wouldn't have reunited. Globaly slavery was aready on its way out. It had alread been abolished in the Brittish Empire. It couldn't have lasted into the 20th century. Would we possibly have reunited when we became more of one mind again? Interesting questions.

Well unsure on that or not as even 100 years later Blacks were still fighting for even basic rights. In fact am watching the history channel now on they story of Kennedy and they covered the civili rights movement about 15-20 minutes ago. So even with the war it still took 100 years for Blacks to have equal treatment (mind you I still feel as I am sure a lot of blacks that there is still unfair treatment going on compared to whites)

I also wanted to comment on a comment you made

QUOTE
We certainly wouldn't be the nation we are today if that had happened.


Bare in mind not saying anything bad here but just making an observation of this statement but whose to say we are better or worse then if the CW had not happened or had a different outcome? unsure.gif

Posted by: Elspeth 23-Nov-2003, 06:09 AM
QUOTE (scottish2 @ Nov 22 2003, 10:34 PM)
QUOTE (Elspeth @ Nov 22 2003, 10:25 PM)
Scottish 2

I have to confess to a sneaking sympathy with what you said. It just may be hindsight talking, but whenever I hear Lincoln's words on the preservation of the Union being spoken, I can't help but question - why? Thousands upon thousands dead and why? Did it have to happen that way? It does seem the Union was a sort of a contract between the states and if some of the parties wanted to void the contract..... We certainly wouldn't be the nation we are today if that had happened. Then again, who's to say we wouldn't have reunited. Globaly slavery was aready on its way out. It had alread been abolished in the Brittish Empire. It couldn't have lasted into the 20th century. Would we possibly have reunited when we became more of one mind again? Interesting questions.

Well unsure on that or not as even 100 years later Blacks were still fighting for even basic rights. In fact am watching the history channel now on they story of Kennedy and they covered the civili rights movement about 15-20 minutes ago. So even with the war it still took 100 years for Blacks to have equal treatment (mind you I still feel as I am sure a lot of blacks that there is still unfair treatment going on compared to whites)

I also wanted to comment on a comment you made



Bare in mind not saying anything bad here but just making an observation of this statement but whose to say we are better or worse then if the CW had not happened or had a different outcome? unsure.gif

It's all speculation, but considering those with whom the CSA would have been in trade with, I have to believe the socio-economic pressure would have been great enough to have ceased the practice of slavery by the 20th century.

Equal rights are of course another matter entirely. But, if reconstruction hadn't happened and the bitterness instilled into generations, would the evolution towards equality been more smooth?

So many what if's.

And as to my statement of we wouldn't be the nation we are today. That was an observation, not a nationalistic comment. Better or worse, we'll never know. And the choice of adjective is, as always, up to opinion of the individual.

Posted by: Pagan 23-Nov-2003, 08:58 AM
Elspeth, in reply to your question about the Confederate Soldiers being vilified. Maybe they dont talk about this much in the history books but, after the war the South was a military state for a while and returning confederate soldiers, especially the officers were often arrested and hanged by the occupying Union soldiers. Many of the Confederates didnt return home they went to Mexico, Texas and further West because they would have been treated as a criminal if they had gone home. Then there was the economy in the South after the war, which was pretty much non existant. No jobs, no money, no one to work the farms. Times were tough. As they often are for the conquered. This information is not conjecture, opinion or from any history book, but from diaries kept by several family members before, during and after the war. What I have read often contradicts what is in the history books and is very, very interesting. To sit and wonder what could have been if certain events had or had not taken place is I suppose interesting but the reality of the situation is the same. As they say, "hind sight is 20/20." It is easy to point blame and assign responsibility to others when we are so far removed and safe from the event. It is completely different for those who lived it in the moment. Slavery and oppression and genocide are still alive and well right here right now in this world. We, man kind, as a collective have learned nothing from our history. We pick and choose our lessions and rewrite the portions to please us and serve our purpose but we learn nothing. War for any reason is a price we cannot afford to pay. The loss of one life for any so called "cause" is unacceptable. But still we continue on butchering those who do not agree with us. Peace cannot be won by bloodshed. Peace begins when people live not when they die. If you say to me now that others have died so that we may have freedom and peace I will say to you that you are delusional. These people have died so that others can justify killing in their name. The past is something to learn from, not repeat. As long as we dress our sons and daughters up and send them into battle we are continuing the patterns of the past. As long as we teach our children to hate for any reason. As long as we continue to sit in judgement of one another we perpetuate what we should have figured out a long time ago. They say that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results each time. This is insanity. It is time to change the world, people. Change begins with each individual first. If each one of us embraced tolerance the world would change over night. Not even understanding. It doesnt matter if you understand just be tolerant. It is ok if you are differnt from me. It is ok if I am different from you. That is my prayer. If anything good could ever come from a war let it be tolerance. My ancestors lived and died in the South for the South, some fought the American soldiers at Little Big Horn, they fought in the American Revolution, and some died at Sterling Bridge fighting for William and Scotland. Some died in the Great Famine in Ireland and again on Bloody Sunday. Through out history they lived and died for some cause. The generation that I spawn will LIVE for PEACE. That is my prayer and my promise. If you want to create a monument to the Confederate Soldiers build it in your heart by tearing down the walls of intollerance and judgment let your life be their monument. Sorry for the soap box but sometimes things just need to be said and not intelectualized. This Thanksgiving let Peace and Tolerance begin with each of you. Pagan

Posted by: Annabelle 23-Nov-2003, 09:29 PM
There are always a few people in every group of the oppressed who can claim they have not been given their opportunity...but I find it difficult to believe in todays time...everyone has the opportunity in America to better themselves if they want it no matter what color or nationality they may be.. It has come to a nation that now gives only to the minority instead of those trying to better themselves...
there are always those who want to take advantage of any system you may have in place.

Annabelle

Posted by: Annabelle 24-Nov-2003, 10:04 AM
Pagan it would be nice if we all lived in never never land and we all had glass houses but war is war...and it always comes down to money

one of the biggest mis-givings you have is the fact that you think everyone values life like you do..I wish everyone did but they don't..

As for getting back to the subject of the Confederate War I still think all people who die for our country deserve to be remembered...

Annabelle

Posted by: barddas 24-Nov-2003, 10:22 AM
Nicely said Pagan.
Everyone says "oh, we want a peaceful world"...... "war is Hell"...Blah, blah, blah!!!!
I agree if people actually practiced what they preach, maybe the world would be in a different situation. Instead of teaching thier kids, they sit them infront of the tele, and that's most of the parenting skills they achieve.

I think we have gone round and round with this topic... and are begining to beat the horse...MOST of us agree that MOST American soldiers deserve to be remembered....



Cheers thumbs_up.gif

Posted by: High Plains Drifter 24-Nov-2003, 10:51 AM
If you go to nearly any County Court House in the South, you will find some sort of memorial to Confederate Soldiers. I do not have a problem with this but I cannot speak for African-Americans. Although slavery was only one of several issues that led up to the War, the Confederate Battle Flag and the Confederacy as a whole has become a symbol adopted by many white supremacist groups. I feel any 21st Century efforts to memorialize Confederate Soldiers any further would add to the racial decisiveness that exists in thes country.

Posted by: Annabelle 24-Nov-2003, 11:38 AM
Racial decisiveness is garbage.

I can't do anything about people who use the Rebel Flag for their own purposes as with White Supremeists groups... also I can't do anything about people who wear a stick on their shoulder label "racist" and walk around asking others to knock it off...it's their problem that they can't go forward...

All other Ethnic Groups who came to America got on with living....other's need to learn to do the same instead of asking us to knock it off...how long do we succumb to this?

I never owned a slave and if I did he'd be in a kilt, long blonde hair with a great body and be serving me drinks out by the pool.

This world will never be perfect....and we don't live in a glass house..wake up folks! Never Never land doesn't exist! But I wish it did!

Annabelle

Posted by: Annabelle 24-Nov-2003, 11:47 AM
Maybe the original slaves should be paid "reparations" not to their descendants but to African American's who were slaves during the Civil War?

They did for the Japanese who were put in concentration camps during the war. Do you think there's anyone alive? Hummm...

Annabelle

Posted by: barddas 24-Nov-2003, 12:04 PM
QUOTE (Annabelle @ Nov 24 2003, 01:38 PM)


This world will never be perfect....and we don't live in a glass house..wake up folks! Never Never land doesn't exist! But I wish it did!

Annabelle




And thinking like that won't make it ANY better. Maybe a bit of reality . Sure, I know *nothing* is perfect. But if anyone isn't willing to change it or at LEAST try..... then don't bitch about the imperfections of the world.

Posted by: Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 24-Nov-2003, 12:06 PM
QUOTE
Racial decisiveness is garbage.

I agree with Annabelle, and would add that I sometimes wonder whether some civil rights groups aren't doing such things as starting fights over displays of the CSA Battle Flag to cover up the true strides that have been made in achieving racial and gender equality, strides that might well endanger the continuing "need" for the existence of such groups. Here in Rochester, NY, we have an extemely popular black mayor, a Democrat with an Urban League background, who I sometimes think is a closet Libertarian, given his willingness to judge each person on the person's own merits, without regard to race, etc. His message is that self-help will get you a lot further than a hand-out. He is one of the few Democrats I have ever voted for. I have no doubt that there are other black politicians around the country being elected for the same reason.
I sometimes think the only group left that can be openly discriminated against is white Catholic males, as I discovered when my son, a graduate of a Jesuit High School, was considering applying to some Ivy League schools, only to discover that Jesuit graduates were less than welcome--but that is getting way too far afield from the scope of this thread, and probably out of scope for this forum.

Posted by: Annabelle 24-Nov-2003, 01:02 PM
Thanks Mailagnas!
Annabelle

Posted by: Annabelle 24-Nov-2003, 01:03 PM
I hate people who run around screaming "I've been persecuted", well get over it, who hasen't!
Annabelle

Posted by: Therasa 29-Nov-2003, 08:10 AM
I am going to add my two cents to this without starting any fights. ( I hope)

I have read all of the comments here. And as I am only human, the first thing is, I hate war, I hate blood shed. Secondly though, most of the battles, I understand. Others, I really don't understand what the heck people were thinking.
(I never have been in the military in anyway, that being said, all of my comments are from a civilian.) I have only watched history shows about these battles and really, I just can't believe what one human can do to another.

I would like to see all of man kind be able to love one another, embrace our differences if you will. Obviously hasn't happened, probably never will. But I do think we can be a bit more tolerant. Kids show more respect on a whole, that adults do. But, that being said, these kids can never of seen war. Kids that see it, live it, grow up and do it all over again. That is the cycle we have to break. But I really don't see a way to do it.

I have the names of family on several plaques around this world. And I am proud of them. I know that they fought for what they believed in. I may not agree with what they believed in, but I must give respect for the fact that they had enough guts to try. I don't know many people that would.

The battles of the past, I'm sorry. I think were alot harder than they are now. Yes, everyone bleeds. But in the beginning, you needed to look into your enemies eyes. You needed to be face to face with him. Not 100 miles away in an armoured tank. (not that now is any less dangerous. )

So I do believe all soldiers, all men and women who have stood up for their rights, beliefs and honor, deserve the respect that they fought so hard for.

Sorry for the rant.

Posted by: Macfive 30-Nov-2003, 07:33 AM
QUOTE (Annabelle @ Nov 24 2003, 01:47 PM)
Maybe the original slaves should be paid "reparations" not to their descendants but to African American's who were slaves during the Civil War?

They did for the Japanese who were put in concentration camps during the war. Do you think there's anyone alive? Hummm...

Annabelle

I'd like to get something for repayment of my ancestor who was most likely kicked out of Scotland to make room for sheep grazing. Or what about Jewish people who were enslaved 2000 years ago; or what about the girls in Eastern Europe that are being enslaved in a life of prositition. Is anybody doing something to repay them.

The blood of 600,000 Americans fought and died and freed the slaves of the south. Mangled and torn apart they gave their lives for the sake of freedom. Don't talk to me about repayment. History has been brutal and cruel. It's time we all moved on to higher standards than to waste are time making amends for the past wrong doings of DEAD people.

I think the best you can do is honor ALL people of that time period because it was really one of the few times in recent history where the future was up for grabs. The Civil War and WWII are two times where the outcome would have us living completely different lives today. Let us not forgot the lessons of the past. That too me is not living in a glass house!

Posted by: Macfive 30-Nov-2003, 07:37 AM
A picture of 2 of my kids on the round tops at Gettysburg. To the left in the background is devils den; two the far left out of the picture was lil round top where the Maine held the union flank. I could not imagine ever making a charge up those hills in the face of certain death.

Posted by: Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 30-Nov-2003, 07:58 AM
MacFive,
Nice picture! Devil's Den and Little Round Top are areas I've become familiar with over the past few years. I've made several trips to Gettysburg as an adult advisor for my daughter's BSA Venturing Crew, which specializes in Civil War Re-enacting. So, we go there quite often at the beginning of July, and also for Remembrance Day in November.
The first time we visited Devil's Den, it had a very strong attraction for my daughter that she had a difficult time explaining. Similarly, we had a hard time leaving Culp's Hill.
A year or so later, after I started researching our family's own WTBS ties, I discovered that a distant cousin Thomas Lewis Ware, of the 15 GA (whose diary was incorporated in the book "35 Days to Gettysburg") had died during the Confederate attack on Devil's Den. I also discovered that a unit in which many of our ancestors served, the 48th Virginia Infantry, was heavily involved in the attach on Culp's Hill.
I have also walked the route of Pickett's Charge with other descendant's on July 3 at the precise time of the Charge. It's the only time all year the Park Service allows us to carry Battle Flags and weapons. It's another very emotional experience. One year, a member of my unit who portrays his chaplain ancestor gave a talk that had a CNN cameraman wiping away tears.
Many other people have had similar experiences. Whether you visit once or many times, it is hard not to be affected.

Posted by: Macfive 30-Nov-2003, 08:16 AM
QUOTE (Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas @ Nov 30 2003, 09:58 AM)
MacFive,
Nice picture! Devil's Den and Little Round Top are areas I've become familiar with over the past few years. I've made several trips to Gettysburg as an adult advisor for my daughter's BSA Venturing Crew, which specializes in Civil War Re-enacting. So, we go there quite often at the beginning of July, and also for Remembrance Day in November.
The first time we visited Devil's Den, it had a very strong attraction for my daughter that she had a difficult time explaining. Similarly, we had a hard time leaving Culp's Hill.
A year or so later, after I started researching our family's own WTBS ties, I discovered that a distant cousin Thomas Lewis Ware, of the 15 GA (whose diary was incorporated in the book "35 Days to Gettysburg") had died during the Confederate attack on Devil's Den. I also discovered that a unit in which many of our ancestors served, the 48th Virginia Infantry, was heavily involved in the attach on Culp's Hill.
I have also walked the route of Pickett's Charge with other descendant's on July 3 at the precise time of the Charge. It's the only time all year the Park Service allows us to carry Battle Flags and weapons. It's another very emotional experience. One year, a member of my unit who portrays his chaplain ancestor gave a talk that had a CNN cameraman wiping away tears.
Many other people have had similar experiences. Whether you visit once or many times, it is hard not to be affected.

You said this in words which I have been trying to describe to people. It really is an emotional experience that you can not quite explain.

I have my own 'unexplained' story while driving through the battlefield park; before the roundtops; I pulled over to read a statue and was inexplicitly drawn to an old statue about 50-70 feet away just after the clearing in the forest. Not having alot of time, we could not get out of the car for each stop, but I was entranced with the statute to the back. I myself jumped out of our van and walked to the back of the clearing and when I reached the statute it was for the Massachusetts Volunteers. (My family and ancestors come from Mass.). It was almost like I was guided to that spot and read the memorial.

We stayed at General Rober E. Lee's Headquarters; right on the battlefield. I highly recommend this hotel as it is very close to the battlefield and away from the center of the busy town.

Thanks for sharing your story!

Posted by: Eamon506 16-Dec-2003, 02:24 PM
Again I am late on a posting! Since I just joined in the begining of December, I hope you will all forgive me. Anyhow, I re-enacted CW for 10 years and agree with Paul completly. I will let his words speak for me.

"I think the best you can do is honor ALL people of that time period because it was really one of the few times in recent history where the future was up for grabs. The Civil War and WWII are two times where the outcome would have us living completely different lives today. Let us not forgot the lessons of the past. That to me is not living in a glass house!"

Paul, if you ever head out to Gettysburg again, and you want an insiders tour, let me know. I have spent entirely too much time there (and have been thrown out of that Irish bar a few times as well!)

Eamon

Posted by: Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 16-Dec-2003, 07:58 PM
QUOTE (Eamon506 @ Dec 16 2003, 03:24 PM)
. . .have been thrown out of that Irish bar a few times as well . . .

Would that be the one on Steinwehr Ave? It's a place where it's occasionally easy to think you've had too much even when you haven't, as when two Gen. Custer's (stuttering Custer and sutler Custer) were sitting at the bar, copying one another's every move. They had more than one person convinced they were seeing double.

Posted by: Eamon506 17-Dec-2003, 10:05 AM
QUOTE (Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas @ Dec 16 2003, 08:58 PM)
Would that be the one on Steinwehr Ave? It's a place where it's occasionally easy to think you've had too much even when you haven't, as when two Gen. Custer's (stuttering Custer and sutler Custer) were sitting at the bar, copying one another's every move. They had more than one person convinced they were seeing double.

Mailagnas, that is the very one! I think its called Rooneys or something now. I was with an Irish regiment, and we thought it was our duty to close the place every rememberance day! Many a song sung and a Guinness hoisted in that place!

Who did you march with?

Eamon

Posted by: Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 17-Dec-2003, 10:10 AM
QUOTE (Eamon506 @ Dec 17 2003, 11:05 AM)


Who did you march with?

Eamon

I was there with the Civil War Heritage Foundation,
http://www.geocities.com/gentrimble/
Sons of Confederate Veterans, Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War, and BSA Venturing Crew 355.
For Remembrance Day, I march with the SCV, as Commander of the Guy-Thurman Camp, Rochester, NY.

Posted by: Eamon506 17-Dec-2003, 12:19 PM
Mailagnas, good stuff! Keep the History alive! We were probably within a couple of yards of each other, at onetime or another!

Eamon

Posted by: Knightly Knight 23-Dec-2003, 08:21 PM
I have tried to read each and every post on this thread.
So here goes (gulp) this is about thinking not stirring
Today is Dec, 23, 2003 and this topic will go on forever I'm sure, here or somewhere else.

Here are some of my loose ends Id like to mention.

The Emancipation Proclamation was not written until two years into the war for the purpose of strenthening the resolve of Northerners who were tired of getting bodies sent back in boxes.

Arlington National Cemetary was property owned by General Robert E. Lee. General Lee had went home to defend his home in the South.

Regarding Reparations - If the descendants of southern slaves get reparations will the decendants of the owners of the slaves get reparations for property taken?
Personally for me the issue of reparations is a dead issue.

Would Blacks who fought for the South be considered evil? ( they fought to keep a system of slavery, although they were promised their own freedom if they fought)

I work with Black Americans everyday. I have Black American friends. The similiar chord about America i hear them mention is the pervasive way they are slighted, somtimes individually and sometimes corporately by people who sometimes don't have a clue they are being offensive. I saw President Johnson sign the Civil Rights Act in 1965. It has been 38 years since that signing.The Uncivil War has been more than 100 yrs since the end,


The last thing Id like to add. Any military commander knows you should not humanize your enemy. You should vilify him to your troops to be effective.
When you "give him a face" it is harder to fight. The problem is the enemy of both sides already had a face. There were people who met on the battlefield the people they loved, their brother, neighbor, uncle. This Uncivil War tore up lives and hearts. I say Confederate Soldiers are owed their due. They fought with smaller numbers, often outmaneuvered their counterparts to do what? Keep their legal way of life and protect their homeland.

I realize my post show definite conflict, thats America

Merry Christmas newyear.gif

Posted by: Annabelle 28-Dec-2003, 09:35 AM
Knightly Knight, great summation! I'm clapping here!

I don't know if anyone saw it but there was a good program on the history channel yesterday about Abe Lincoln. I did discuss the war and discussed all the attempts on Lincolns life. They brought forth the side of life where a wife (Mary Todd Lincoln) discussed her role in her husbands life and her worry about the attempts on her husbands life. This program made you see them more as a regular family with all the concerns for each other not as a PRESIDENT.
Very good program.

Annabelle

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 28-Dec-2003, 11:37 AM
Sorry to butt in this late, but this is the first time I actually seen this threat.. else I'd have been in further.

As a German most of the Generalisations done about WW2 together with Nazis and Germans are .. to say it tamely.. annoying me a great lot.

Nazis were the Government and those that stood to it. That is NOT the majority of people in Germany at that time.
The Military was brought up under the German Empire (as small as it was), and most that joined later did so under the Weimarer Republik.
It was independent from the Government, but had to do what those sitting on top said.

One of the most serious Hitler assassination attempts came from within the Military. For those that are interested: read something about Stauffenberg.

The German government DID NOT try to kill everyone non-aryan. Hitler wasn't even there when the "Endlösung" was discussed in the Hotel at the Wannsee in Berlin. The idea was to put Aryans on top of everything else.

The war was started in order to get more land for the "Volk ohne Raum" (People without room). Hitler had the great plan to expand Germany to the east, enslaving the slawish people in that turn because they were Slawen, destined to be slaves under the Aryan race. They simply wanted to conquer Russia.

In a conference in München before the war, the British, French and Russians decided to give the Germans a big piece of Czechia in order to avoid war (Chamberlain was the prime minister of GB at that time).
Some time later the sad attack on Poland began ("Seit heute morgen, 6 Uhr, wird zurückgeschossen" - Since this morning, 6 o'clock, we're firing back)

The German army fought because they had to do what they were told. As does every army in this world I dare say.

I honor those of my family that fell in both World Wars, they fought because it was their job. My Great Grandfather had the command over a submarine in WW2 and since he never did anything to actually support the Nationalist Government, he was cleared by the allies to help building up a new German Navy. He became an Admiral later in his life and he was proud of what he accomplished. They didn't fight for ideals, but for their lives, because once war started, only victory, loss or truce can stop it.

I am going to name my child in his memory, he was a dear old man and I miss him sorely.

If American's get annoyed by the fact that what we learn in School about the Civil War, I can understand that.
But I get annoyed with people that don't want to understand that WW1 as well as WW2 are very very much misunderstood all over the world.

I will add one of my favourite quotes here and that it is of Hermann Goering adds even more historical value to it.

QUOTE
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nürnberg trials


http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm


Posted by: andylucy 28-Dec-2003, 11:33 PM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Dec 28 2003, 11:37 AM)
If American's get annoyed by the fact that what we learn in School about the Civil War, I can understand that.
But I get annoyed with people that don't want to understand that WW1 as well as WW2 are very very much misunderstood all over the world.

AD,

Unfortunately, most American schools teach history as simply memorizing names, places and dates. They teach 4 of the 5 "W's": Who, What, Where and When. They usually gloss over the most important one: Why. That gets filled in by Hollywood, and we all know how "accurate" they are. And this goes for American as well as world history.

I agree with you. Honor the poor guys who are told where to go and whom to fight, regardless of their uniform.

Just my tuppence.

Andy

Posted by: Annabelle 30-Dec-2003, 09:29 PM
Very interesting! WWII now?

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 01-Jan-2004, 05:00 PM
I think it basically goes for every war.. I might not honor the cause but I will always think of the poor souls that have to experience war.

Alike for what side/cause they fought, they should be remembered for the fact that they fought for their lives.


In the historic view of wars the common soldiers are too often forgotten.

Posted by: andylucy 02-Jan-2004, 01:55 PM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Jan 1 2004, 05:00 PM)
In the historic view of wars the common soldiers are too often forgotten.

Exactly right, AD!! thumbs_up.gif

This is why I love reenacting. It enables me to teach people about what the daily life of a lowly private soldier in the British Army in the 1770's was like. Not the generals, colonels or ministers of various offices. The lowly grunt, the infantryman who soldiers for a living. It always amazes me that people know so little about the miserable life that soldiers led.

For example, when I explain that 5 men shared my tent with me, they look at it and shake their heads in disbelief. It is 7 ft long, 6 ft wide and 6 ft tall. They just can't picture it. So, my mess mates and I demonstrate. They leave with a little bit better picture of the travails of the common soldier.

Just my tuppence.

Andy

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 02-Jan-2004, 04:51 PM
hehe, reminds me of the "Dackelrennbahn" of the German Army (German Dachshund Race Track). It's the standart issue tent, barely big enough for 1 person, two are meant to sleep in it *grins*

Posted by: Knightly Knight 02-Jan-2004, 11:31 PM
Annabelle, thanks for the applause. I hope i can still bow LOL


Heres a thought
a few wars are fought for freedom, most are fought by the poor for the rich.
by Knightly Knight

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 05-Jan-2004, 11:16 AM
and who isn't aware of that should actually try to think once in their lives...

it isn't always though, my great grandfather was drafted even though he had no interest in war, nor was he poor...

Posted by: Annabelle 14-Jan-2004, 11:12 PM
War, sad but necessary sometimes.

A

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 15-Jan-2004, 09:38 AM
I don't think so.

It's always silly

But that's offtopic.gif happy.gif

Posted by: Annabelle 15-Jan-2004, 09:39 PM
Yea we were talking about Confederate memories and after the WWI and II discussion I though we were way off topic. But I'm always interested in new subjects.
A

Posted by: Eamon 16-Jan-2004, 09:50 AM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Dec 28 2003, 12:37 PM)


My Great Grandfather had the command over a submarine in WW2 and since he never did anything to actually support the Nationalist Government, he was cleared by the allies to help building up a new German Navy. He became an Admiral later in his life and he was proud of what he accomplished.

A_D, do you know what submarine he commanded? Churchill paid the U-Boat crews the highest complement by stating that the only thing he was really afraid of in the war, were the U-Boats. His quote went something like this

"The only thing that ever frightened me during the war was the U-boat peril."

Good on ya for naming you (future) son after him.

Eamon

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 16-Jan-2004, 06:56 PM
I also know half of the crew, eamonn =) His funeral was one of the most beautiful I have ever seen, he was cherished much by people of the government as an Admiral and as fellow soldier by those working under him.
He was a "no-fuss" kind of man and even though when it looked as if he was dying and the German Navy wanted to pay him tribute and give them a Fregatte for the funeral he said no and left us enough money to pay the rent for a little yacht.... (his urn was sunk into the sea).

Anyway, Annabelle I butted in because I thought it was about the soldiers themselves, I don't care for what side they fought but grieve for the loss of lives of many young men in any war. it's just about the only wars I can talk about so I added that in to underline my point.

Posted by: Eamon 19-Jan-2004, 09:16 AM
A_D,

Uhm, your Avatar changed. Quite a cutie, that one. Still love your old one, kind of a hesitant, expectant lass, staring quite unabashedly into you inner soul...(or thats what I got out of it.)

Anyway, what boat was it? I have a lot of research material on the Type VIIC class. Off the coast of North Carolina lie the U-85 and U-352. I have dove on the 85 and hope to get down to the 352 this summer. And just so you know, both are recognized war graves, and nothing is removed from the wrecks (aside from an anti-aircraft gun removed from the 352 in the 70's which was on display at a dive shop...wankers...)

Thanks for checking

Eamon

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 19-Jan-2004, 02:41 PM
I'd have to look it up or ask my grandma.. his boat didn't sink though, else I'd never would have gotten to know my "chocolate-opa" smile.gif (he always distributed little chocolate pieces under his great grandchildren..)

Posted by: Macfive 23-Jan-2004, 10:31 PM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Dec 28 2003, 01:37 PM)
The German army fought because they had to do what they were told. As does every army in this world I dare say.

I honor those of my family that fell in both World Wars, they fought because it was their job. My Great Grandfather had the command over a submarine in WW2 and since he never did anything to actually support the Nationalist Government, he was cleared by the allies to help building up a new German Navy. He became an Admiral later in his life and he was proud of what he accomplished. They didn't fight for ideals, but for their lives, because once war started, only victory, loss or truce can stop it.

Ok, this is a little off topic!

One thing that has always bothered me about that whole time period is how the accomplishments of the German people have not been given due credit. Even though a dictator harnessed the powers generated by this knowledge to do evil, we certainly would not have made it into space without the Germans know how and technology. Maybe not too many people know this, but the same scientist that created the V2 rocket program worked on the Apollo space program and there is even 1 German scientist that still works actively for Nasa! Same for the Russians, there technology came from the Germans.

This is just one example, but we really have benefited from the technology advances made by the Germans. We would have been 50 years behind today if it were not for the technology grab that was made after the war.

Another thing that bothers me is the way Germany was treated after the war, especially by the Russians. I'm not trying to make any excuses for Hitler, he was evil and he was mad. Just like in Iraq, Saddam and his sons were clearly murderers, but we don't punish the Iraq people for this. The atocities committed by the Russians, in my opinion, were some of the worst committed by a government against families that were innocent. But you don't read that in the books at school. No wonder why General Patton wanted to press on into Russia!

I think just like the civil war, both sides need to be honored. Not the murders or the people involved in the holocaust, but like Aon has pointed out - the common lay soldiers who fought and died with bravery and courage.

I'd like to honor my Dad. He was a combat engineer in H & S company, 150th combat engineers, Patton's third army. He was at the Battle of the Bulge! He even received the Certificate of Merit. But he never once bragged nor laid claim to anything about the war. He remained silent, only recalling the places and a few isolated incidents (like being 18 and crawling through a field with mortar and gun fire - his best buddy blown to bits next to him). We didn't even know he received a medal - we found it after he passed away.

Sometimes I think what it would have been like to be him, walking through the woods of Germany, freezing cold, snow...not knowing if you will live or die. Then I realize how easy my life is and quickly drop all my worries. Wow, gotta honor all of those guys from that time period. Just amazing men and an inspiration to us all.

A few years back I found my Dad's picture on a website. My mom was in tears when she took out a torn photograph of him to find out it was a larger picture of the entire company (on the website.) Here is the site if anyone is interested:

http://www.150th.com

And a little picture of him when he was 18. He is in the back centered.



Posted by: Aon_Daonna 24-Jan-2004, 05:03 PM
well.. the guy finishing off the atom bomb was German as well.. as were most scientist working in the bomb.
Credit or not, I do honour the soldiers and I tend to get a wee bit mad if people are trying to tell me not to do that because all Germans are bad *grummels*

Posted by: andylucy 25-Jan-2004, 01:58 AM
QUOTE (Macfive @ Jan 23 2004, 10:31 PM)
Another thing that bothers me is the way Germany was treated after the war, especially by the Russians.  ...  The atocities committed by the Russians, in my opinion, were some of the worst committed by a government against families that were innocent.


I assume that you are referring to the part of Germany occupied by the Soviets. In the western area, it seems they learned from the Versailles Treaty, and didn't punish Germany, but assisted them in rebuilding. I agree that the Soviet atrocities were among the worst, Stalin's purge of the kulaks is a great example.

QUOTE (Macfive @ Jan 23 2004, 10:31 PM)
I'd like to honor my Dad. He was a combat engineer in H & S company, 150th combat engineers, Patton's third army. He was at the Battle of the Bulge! He even received the Certificate of Merit. But he never once bragged nor laid claim to anything about the war.


Huah! You are right to honor your father. Combat engineers are possibly even more at risk during combat ops than infantry because they are trying to do their engineering job as well as fight. My father was with the 84th Engineering Construction Batallion, I Corps, in Korea.

By the way, most of the combat vets I know don't want to talk about it. My father refused to talk about it. Usually, at least in my experience, the more someone talks about their war record, the farther to the rear they were.

Just my tuppence.

Posted by: Annabelle 25-Jan-2004, 11:50 AM
All men should be honored everywhere who served in any capacity during a war. It takes courage, strength and integrity to be involved. They deserve our praises.
A

Posted by: Eamon 02-Feb-2004, 11:56 AM
Just got back from the annual "Battle of the Bulge" commemoration at Fort Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania. Good event. One of my friends, Jack Agnew always attends. He is a decorated airborne veteran with 3 combat jumps in WWII (He fought with HQ/506 recently portrayed in the HBO Miniseries 'Band Of Brothers'). One of his best friends, Tony, is a german airborne veteran who goes to the Gap every year, and stays in the german re-enactor barracks. The genuine respect that these two 'enemys' share for each other is amazing. Tony always gets a salute from me and my buddies.

Eamon

Posted by: peckery 04-Feb-2004, 10:16 AM
Too many hairs to split here. Some wanted slavery, some were rebelling for states rights, but most I think were poor farmers who didn't have slaves who just saw it as them telling us what to do. (North v South) Yes many a brave man died, but THEY LOST!! I do not think the union they tried to split should build them a statue and say never mind, it was a long time ago. They are not forgotten. If the southern states want to spend their money on a memorial, that is cool. I don't think one belongs in DC though.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 04-Feb-2004, 04:44 PM
at least not assume the "Never mind" attitude.. that would be not valueying the events as they were in my eyes. I agree with you Peckery, they lost. But I think soldiers always deserve a memorial. The reasons of war don't.

Posted by: MacErca 04-Feb-2004, 04:50 PM
If the reason for not having a memorial is "they lost" then why pray tell, do we have a Vietnam Vets memorial in D.C.?
I am a Vietnam Veteran, btw.
I think all soldiers need to be remembered, most time than not the rank and file really has no choice as to who "their war" is with, they just go with as much honor they have in the situation.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 04-Feb-2004, 05:31 PM
with you on that Mac. The soldiers do the dirty stuff while the higher ups think about the ideology. Ideology doesn't deserve the memorial, soldiers do

Posted by: peckery 04-Feb-2004, 11:26 PM
QUOTE (MacErca @ Feb 4 2004, 05:50 PM)
If the reason for not having a memorial is "they lost" then why pray tell, do we have a Vietnam Vets memorial in D.C.?
I am a Vietnam Veteran, btw.
I think all soldiers need to be remembered, most time than not the rank and file really has no choice as to who "their war" is with, they just go with as much honor they have in the situation.

Apples and oranges, and thank you for serving your country usaflag.gif In the Vietnam war, the government told you to go. A RECOGNIZED government. I am not saying that the southerners should be forgotten, or even not have a memorial. I just don't think federal tax dollars should pay to remember the ones who tried to destroy that same government. war.gif unclesam.gif

Posted by: birddog20002001 06-Feb-2004, 02:15 PM
I dont feel that the Federal Govt should have to pay for a monument but
all Americans lost in that war except the Federalist whom wanted to take the rights away from the common man, and they have one by one the rights and responsibilities of the citizens of the US are eroded. Salvery as an institution was dying and would have disappeared not much longer. Though generally poor My family was sharecroppers, I had several relatives in the war fighting for what they believed in

Posted by: MacErca 07-Feb-2004, 08:36 AM
If a memorial was to be built it should show both sides maybe portray two brothers who fought on oppisite sides and the war over with fallen comrades, show them hugging and title it "Welcome Home", and show the everyday soldier not the higher ups, I agree that it tried and nearly did rip this mighty nation apart, and could place said memorial in Arlington Nat. Cem. which was owned by Gen.Robert E. Lee. I agree that the Federal Government should not pay for it , it should be from the people, have the flag on a standard.

Well anyway that is how I would picture it to show the day that the war ended and to honor the fallen men of both sides, cause wrong or right we are one Nation.

Posted by: andylucy 08-Feb-2004, 06:03 AM
QUOTE (MacErca @ Feb 7 2004, 08:36 AM)
If a memorial was to be built it should show both sides maybe portray two brothers who fought on oppisite sides and the war over with fallen comrades, show them hugging and title it "Welcome Home

Great idea. I also agree that it should be a privately funded memorial.

Just my tuppence.

Andy

Posted by: andylucy 08-Feb-2004, 06:09 AM
QUOTE (peckery @ Feb 4 2004, 10:16 AM)
Yes many a brave man died, but THEY LOST!!

And since when does the issue of victory or defeat matter when it comes to the honor of the men who fought. The French Foreign Legion is one of the most honorable corps to ever take the field, and they celebrate most their losses. The Battle of Camerone is their highest holiday. It celebrates the stand of a single company of 62 legionnaires and three officers against a force of 1200 Mexican infantry and 800 cavalry. When the final 5 (that's right, five) run out of ammunition, the mount a bayonet charge. Two are killed, but the remaining 3 are spared, earning them the comment, "These are not men, they are devils!"

What counts is how you fight, not whether you win.

Just my tuppence.

Andy

Posted by: RICH 08-Feb-2004, 08:02 PM
I had relatives that fought on both sides and I'm sure they believed in what they were fighting for...... My father spent 20 years in the US Navy and I spent a total of 31 years in the reserve and active US Army. I think that there should be a memorial that commemorates ALL Civil War Soldiers. And it should be funded as any other monument. Not all National monuments in Washington, D.C. are government funded. Some were build with private funds, some with a combination of private and government funding and some solely government funded. The revisionists need to stop changing history to please some politically correct agenda. The Civil War was about many things but most importantly it WAS about States Rights. A major US Army post is named after a Confederate General and that is Fort Hood in Texas. My father is buried in a cemetery in southern Illinois and there are several graves for Confederate State of America Soldiers. The markers provided by the Veterans Administration and every holiday, such as Memorial Day and Veterans Day the graves are decorated the same as any of the other veterans.

RICH
Royal05.gif

Posted by: peckery 08-Feb-2004, 08:58 PM
QUOTE (andylucy @ Feb 8 2004, 07:09 AM)
And since when does the issue of victory or defeat matter when it comes to the honor of the men who fought. The French Foreign Legion is one of the most honorable corps to ever take the field, and they celebrate most their losses. The Battle of Camerone is their highest holiday. It celebrates the stand of a single company of 62 legionnaires and three officers against a force of 1200 Mexican infantry and 800 cavalry. When the final 5 (that's right, five) run out of ammunition, the mount a bayonet charge. Two are killed, but the remaining 3 are spared, earning them the comment, "These are not men, they are devils!"

What counts is how you fight, not whether you win.

Just my tuppence.

Andy

Following your logic, we should have monuments to the Germans and japaneese in Kentucky. To go into battle, it is a given that you have to be brave. Winners get statues, loosers just get dead. As Patton said, "You don't win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making that other poor dumb bastard die for HIS country."

Posted by: RICH 08-Feb-2004, 09:30 PM
QUOTE
Following your logic, we should have monuments to the Germans and japaneese in Kentucky. To go into battle, it is a given that you have to be brave. Winners get statues, loosers just get dead. As Patton said, "You don't win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making that other poor dumb bastard die for HIS country."


Yes, and in the Civil War ALL THOSE POOR DUMB BASTARDS were AMERICANS, WIN or LOSE...........................................

RICH
Royal05.gif

A Son of the American Revolution, A son of the Union, A Son of the Confederacy,
A 10th Generation American.........

Posted by: peckery 09-Feb-2004, 07:58 PM
QUOTE (RICH @ Feb 8 2004, 10:30 PM)


Yes, and in the Civil War ALL THOSE POOR DUMB BASTARDS were AMERICANS, WIN or LOSE...........................................

RICH
Royal05.gif

A Son of the American Revolution, A son of the Union, A Son of the Confederacy,
A 10th Generation American.........

Seems to me I remember the southern dumb bastards wanting to leave the union, the United States, leave America. Do you award the bravery of someone trying to tear down your country? The south DID loose. Some seem to forget that!

Posted by: MacErca 09-Feb-2004, 09:28 PM


* General Robert E. Lee, Joseph Johnston, A.P. Hill, Fitzhugh Lee, and J.E.B. Stuart were NOT slave owners.

* General Ulysses S. Grant kept slaves to take care of his wife while he was off "fighting against slavery" ....What the heck ?

Why do suppose this is, wonder if he was really a merc. kinda goes against everything he claimed to be.

Posted by: RICH 10-Feb-2004, 12:23 AM
It wasn't wanting to leave the Union as much as is was standing up for their States rights. Yes they split, they seceded and their name was the Confederate States of AMERICA. The WHOLE country lost, not just the south. Yes the Union won the physical war but the whole country lost something. families were torn apart, material wealth was lost, the social and moral fabric of the country was damaged. It took a long time to heal those wounds. I dare say that some wounds are still not healed.

I see by your statements that you have not had the privilege to serve as a member of the armed forces. As a soldier (over 30years) I learned to respect my enemy, for he like I, is a soldier upholding what he believes to be true and just. Who's to say he's wrong and I'm right. Just because the mighty vanquishes his enemy doesn't mean it was right. It just means he was stronger than his enemy.

When you're in battle you destroy your enemy. When the battles over, and you have won, you respect the dead (the enemy as well as friendly) and treat them with proper dignity. You tend to the wounded and protect them as long as they abide by the rules otherwise they get to go to a Prisoner compound sooner that later.

It's called RESPECT. If you don't understand that there is no use trying to explain it to you.

RICH
Royal05.gif

Posted by: MacEoghainn 10-Feb-2004, 08:54 AM
I am joining this discussion very late, but for what it's worth, here's my two cents.

I can trace the family tree of both of my parent?s family?s immigration to America to well before the Revolution ( the exception being my Gillespie ancestors, my great-great-grandfather Gillespie was born in County Antrim, Ulster, Ireland in 1833 and his father was born in Adrain, Scotland in 1807) With the exception of my maternal grandmother's family, which is half Pennsylvania Dutch (German-speaking Swiss, German, and French Huguenot) and half New England Yankee (Scot, Welsh, Irish and, dare I say, English), most of my immigrant ancestors settled, and migrated west from southern states (Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina) with my particular branch ending up in Ohio. My mother's Powell immigrant ancestor was in Jamestown Virginia in 1607.

As one might expect, I had a number of ancestors who fought in the Revolution (on both sides) and some who didn't (German Dunkards). During the American Civil War my Ohio born ancestors fought for the Union (though I may be a cousin of Bill Cantrell, that notorious Confederate outlaw in Missouri, whose mother was a Clark and was born in Ohio). I'm sure there were an equal number of kin fighting for the Confederacy. My great-greatgrandfather Ewing and three of his brothers served in the Ohio Volunteer Infantry, two in the 3rd OVI G.A.R. (both temporary guests of the Confederate States of America after the battle of Stones River in Tennessee-1862) and my great-greatgrandfather and one other brother with the 97th OVI G.A.R. (to the end of the war). You also may be aware of some Ewing cousins and Ewing spouses from the neighboring county to where my Ewings settled. Their names were, among others, General William T. Sherman and General Thomas Ewing.

Enough of my Family History! Now the question. No, I do not believe there should be a National Monument to Confederate Soldiers. I do not accept the "States Right" argument as an excuse for treason. I believe that was a fairy tail created by the Southern Elite to keep the poor white folk in their place. The question of legal secession from the Union had been answered during the Andrew Jackson administration, when South Carolina had tried to succeed (if I remember correctly President Jackson was born in North Carolina and called Tennessee his home). I would have no problem with a generic Civil War Monument, nor do I have a problem with the current Memorials that exist in many southern states (I live in Lee County Florida, a county named in honor of Robert E. Lee, his portrait adorns the wall of the County Commission meeting room).

I believe President Lincoln's speech at Gettysburg actually honors both sides and I quote it here:

Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth upon this continent a new nation: conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war. . .testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated. . . can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war.

We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate. . .we cannot consecrate. . . we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here.

It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us. . .that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion. . . that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain. . . that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. . . and that government of the people. . .by the people. . .for the people. . . shall not perish from the earth.

Abraham Lincoln (born Feb. 12, 1809, in Hardin County, Kentucky {another southerner})

Steve Ewing, American and Veteran

Posted by: MacEoghainn 10-Feb-2004, 09:08 AM
Re: My last post.

I wrote: when South Carolina had tried to suceed .

I meant to write: when South Carolina had tried to secede .

Darn Spell checker!! sad.gif

Posted by: peckery 10-Feb-2004, 11:41 AM
QUOTE (RICH @ Feb 10 2004, 01:23 AM)
It wasn't wanting to leave the Union as much as is was standing up for their States rights. Yes they split, they seceded and their name was the Confederate States of AMERICA. The WHOLE country lost, not just the south. Yes the Union won the physical war but the whole country lost something. families were torn apart, material wealth was lost, the social and moral fabric of the country was damaged. It took a long time to heal those wounds. I dare say that some wounds are still not healed.

I see by your statements that you have not had the privilege to serve as a member of the armed forces. As a soldier (over 30years) I learned to respect my enemy, for he like I, is a soldier upholding what he believes to be true and just. Who's to say he's wrong and I'm right. Just because the mighty vanquishes his enemy doesn't mean it was right. It just means he was stronger than his enemy.

When you're in battle you destroy your enemy. When the battles over, and you have won, you respect the dead (the enemy as well as friendly) and treat them with proper dignity. You tend to the wounded and protect them as long as they abide by the rules otherwise they get to go to a Prisoner compound sooner that later.

It's called RESPECT. If you don't understand that there is no use trying to explain it to you.

RICH
Royal05.gif

Never said they didn't deserve respect. I also said that a memorial is fine, but federal tax dollars should not pay for it. This MY OPINION. If you would have taken the time to read all my postings on this subject, you would know that! And as far as my not being in the military, it was not an option open to me. And as far as RESPECT goes, I'm the guy that paid you freakin salary for the 30 years you were in. clothed you and fed you!!!!

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 10-Feb-2004, 03:45 PM
QUOTE (peckery)
Following your logic, we should have monuments to the Germans and japaneese in Kentucky


I don't think the french foreign legion puts up memorials in kentucky. Every memorial has a place it belongs. Whoever it may commemorate.

Posted by: peckery 10-Feb-2004, 05:15 PM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Feb 10 2004, 04:45 PM)
Every memorial has a place it belongs. Whoever it may commemorate.

YES!!!!!! toot.gif toot.gif toot.gif

Posted by: Raven 10-Feb-2004, 05:52 PM
QUOTE (MacErca @ Feb 4 2004, 05:50 PM)
If the reason for not having a memorial is "they lost" then why pray tell, do we have a Vietnam Vets memorial in D.C.?
I am a Vietnam Veteran, btw.
I think all soldiers need to be remembered, most time than not the rank and file really has no choice as to who "their war" is with, they just go with as much honor they have in the situation.

We have memorials for our soilders not so much because we won wars as much as because we still exist. If we had not succeeded in our revolution against the British tyrants wink.gif there would be no revolutionary war memorials in this country. We were all British citizens when that war began but when it was over we became the United States.

The Confederacy no longer exists, therefore it is not capable of erecting memorials to its heros.

BTW this is just speculation but I suspect that if we had not succeeded in our revolutionary war that all of the fathers of our country I.E. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson etc... would have been rounded up and hanged and that any mention of memorials for them (regardless of how bravely the fought or served) would have been frowned upon by the Crown.

Just food for thought.

Peace

Mikel

Posted by: RICH 10-Feb-2004, 11:06 PM
QUOTE
. And as far as RESPECT goes, I'm the guy that paid you freakin salary for the 30 years you were in. clothed you and fed you!!!!


Guess what? I PAID TAXES just like you. So I guess I paid my own salary, clothed myself, and feed myself too....... And raised a family!!!!!!!!

RICH
Royal05.gif

Posted by: Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 11-Feb-2004, 05:27 AM
I was in the Air Force for 7 years, which was enough time to realize the sacrifices made by those like Rich, who made a career of it. When I joined, I received the princely salary of $75/month--living high on the hog at the expense of the US taxpayers, indeed!
Thank you, Rich, for the sacrifices you and your family made to allow the rest of us to enjoy the freedom and prosperity this country enjoys today.

Posted by: peckery 11-Feb-2004, 08:19 AM
QUOTE (RICH @ Feb 11 2004, 12:06 AM)

Guess what? I PAID TAXES just like you. So I guess I paid my own salary, clothed myself, and feed myself too....... And raised a family!!!!!!!!

RICH
Royal05.gif

Well done!!!

Posted by: rock_serenade 01-Mar-2004, 04:54 PM
The south was protecting what they thought was their finacial well being, much the same as the colonists did at the taxation without representation which started the revolutuonary war. The confederate soldiers were being just as patriotic as the union soldiers. Slavery was a major money maker, either in the act of selling slaves or the slave labor that worked the huge plantations, and so was a big target or political platform to use, but it was not what the whole war was about by any means. As they say, Money is the root of all evil.

Posted by: Herrerano 16-Apr-2004, 11:58 AM
Tomorrow ? April 17 ? the remains of the crew of the Confederate submarine CSS Hunley will be buried with full military honors in Charleston, S.C.'s Magnolia Cemetery.

http://www.hunleyfuneral.org/


Leo cool.gif

Posted by: ronw1 16-May-2004, 02:05 PM
Yankee born and bred the fight should not have happened it started out as one thing and ended up something else and everybody North and South lost family over what?
(On soap box) The big thing that has been going on latley about the Confederate flag not bieng allowed to fly anywhere by certain people, B.S. they are yelling about the wrong flag if they would look at it right (the battle flag was not the south flag but the stars and bars two totaly different flags ) They just want something to cry about. We yankees freed them and most have not showed anything for there freedom. They are the most racest people there I know of the generations now have know idea of the slave years but what twisted minds have tought them their own kind put them into slavery to start not the whites. (off soap box now) To the southern people I apolijize for the mistake of my ancestors it should not have happened. sad.gif

Posted by: Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 16-May-2004, 06:31 PM
Yesterday I participated in a "Ceremonial" day for the Confederates buried at Woodlawn Cemetery, Elmira, NY, conducted by the Buffalo Guards SCV Camp, Buffalo, NY, and the Guy-Thurmon SCV Camp, Rochester, NY. Before the ceremony, the Buffalo Guards, with some assistance from the Guy-Thurmon Camp and the 22d VA re-enactment group placed a 1' X 1' Confederate Battle Flag on each grave. We were also allowed to fly the Bonnie Blue and the National Flags, as well as fire a salute during the ceremony. Regrettably, due to National VA policy, the flags had to come down today, as we are only allowed to fly them at Woodlawn, a VA cemetery, on US Memorial Day and one Confederate "Ceremonial" day. We were not allowed to use the word "Memorial" on our program hand-out. Nor were we allowed to the SCV or discuss the history of the Elmira prison camp during our ceremonies.
Notwithstandng the restrictions placed on us, we are indeed grateful to the VA for the loving care given by them to the graves of our fallen ancestors and for the opportunity to honor their memory. Many of the men buried at Woodlawn served with my own kin in the 48th VA Infantry, a unit that was overrun at Spotsylvania, with 104 men captured, when General Johnson's division ceased to exist, with perhaps 400 survivors found after the battle. Many of the captured men were sent to Elmira, where a number of them died, mostly from chronic diarrhea, pneumonia, and general maltreatment. Due to the loving manner in which they were given Christian burials by Sexton Jones, an escaped slave, most of the families whose sons, brothers, and fathers were buried at Woodlawn elected to leave them there after the war, rather than bringing them home for re-interment.
Mick Cole
Commander, Guy-Thurmon Camp #1928, Sons of Confederate Veterans

Posted by: Macfive 16-May-2004, 07:32 PM
Thank you Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas for that fine account of the cermonies at Woodlawn Cemetary in Elmira, NY.

It is a shame that this country can not come to grips with its own past. The Confederacy was made up of many honorable peoples and the culture of the south (minus the slave issues) was rich with histories and stories.

Even the U.S. Military seems to acknowledge the significance of certain southern generals and leaders with their ancestory firmly rooted in the south. Here is a recent article on Stonewall Jackson and George S. Patton: A Survey of Leadership.

http://www.army.mil/professionalwriting/volumes/volume2/april_2004/4_04_1.html

I thought I would share this since Stonewall Jackson's death occurred May 10th, 1863 and it seems appropriate with your post.


Posted by: ronw1 16-May-2004, 09:00 PM
sad.gif forgot one thing in my little tangent on this topic LET THAT BABY FLY WITH PRIDE let no one say other wise they were men and boys from the south and they died for it.
This makes them heroes no matter what side they were on They deserve a place with honor.

Posted by: cwa92464 12-Sep-2004, 03:06 PM
I believe that we should do more in their memory. They fought for something that they believed in and it was legal in their respective states during that time. Many fought merely because state prode was greater than national pride. What would you think if 100 years from now, our memories are degraded because we had--dare I say it--dogs and cats for pets?? beer_mug.gif

Posted by: celticwoodsman 22-Sep-2004, 03:08 PM
I dont see anything wrong with honoring warriors who have bled on the field of battle for their beliefs, if we see it as right or wrong that is different. As well as I think that we should honor all fallen warriors on memorial day....no matter what side they fought for there was a mother that lost her child

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