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Posted by: stevenpd 12-Aug-2009, 05:18 PM
I've started this thread to continue a discussion in another without hijacking the original thread.

QUOTE
stevenpd - I don't think anyone can dispute that Obama failed to place his hand over his heart during the national anthem once. There are photographs showing it. There are also photos showing him placing his hand over it on other occasions. The initial comment said he "refuses" to put his hand over his heart, as though it were an intentional snub. I can't find any comment by him which definitively proves any such intent. Remember, this was a reason given to assert some impending totalitarianism. So tell me what's the formula? How many neglected hands over hearts equals how much totalitarianism?

Lets take the Muslim comment in context shall we:

“What I want to do is to create a better dialogue so that the Muslim world understands more effectively how the United States, but also how the West thinks about many of these difficult issues like terrorism, like democracy, to discuss the framework for what’s happened in Iraq and Afghanistan and our outreach to Iran, and also how we view the prospects for peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians,” Mr. Obama said.

The president said the United States and other parts of the Western world “have to educate ourselves more effectively on Islam.”

“And one of the points I want to make is, is that if you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we’d be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world,” Mr. Obama said. “And so there’s got to be a better dialogue and a better understanding between the two peoples.”

He's quantifying the relative size of Muslim populations in the US and in predominately Muslim countries. That's an entirely different statement than saying the US is a Muslim nation. Why? Because its not a solely Muslim nation or even predominately one. Come now, lets give the guy some credit for an IQ and take comments within the context they're made without superimpositions of fictionalized nefarious intent.

I agree with your point that people should be heard in the health care debate and the facts of the bill should be revealed to them as it progresses rather than foisted upon them without regard for their opinions, particularly if manditory participation is part of the bill. Yet in fairness, how many of you really avidly peruse the congressional record and keep track of pending legislation? Are not avenues available to write/contact your representatives about any issue in their legislative purview? Haven't there always been?

The cybersecurity bill sounds scary yes. But when you consider how vast is the reach of internet, our dependence on it and how far reaching and disabling an attack would be in the realms of finanace, defense, communication and utility infrastructures, which would probably be considered "critical networks", then what is the government to do in an extreme circumstance? Before anyone says "create better security against attacks, with defensive software" I would think that's part of the mix wouldn't you? I wouldn't mind such a post being established - providing it has sufficient congressional and judicial oversight! Give me an alternative. What defensive means would you establish to defend against an attack which would effectively disable aspects of the internet critical to national defense, banking, telecommunications etc.? Wouldn't you want the ability to shut down those networks as an option? If you're worried about such activity being at the sole discretion of the president, remember the decision to launch nuclear weapons is in his discretion? Establishment of martial law..... What - You want assurances that you'd have the ability to email your loved ones once the missles fly?

How much do you trust your government? This seems to be the central question for all of us. By the way, "not at all" is a disingenuous answer. There are countless ways government is trusted in every facet of life by all of us. I have no argument against oversight, no argument with the people's constitutional right to address or protest government policies should they have a greivance and agree that govenment has an obligation to respond, but lets get real. Egregious totalitarian panic attacks and hyperbole serve as distractions from maintaining these rights effectively. With due respect to the emotions involved, at some point intelligent discussion has to commence. That said, I recognize the potential that town hall shouting matches may serve as prelude to greater discussion, if for no other reason than to stop them, then again they may only create backlash.



Antwn

Pledge of Allegiance:

I agree that the intent is not there and it could be a simple oversight. And such an over sight in no way indicates a predisposition towards a totalitarian regime. But it is disturbing nonetheless for the simple reason that we have a gentleman who was seeking the highest office in the land and a primary leader in the free world. I expect more from such a person. A simple act of placing ones hand over their heart during the Pledge of Allegiance was taught in elementary school. It is a sigh of respect of the greatest nation in the world. I can not read into anything when it comes to his thoughts for I can not read minds nor will I make assumptions. It is what it is.

Muslim comment context:

This speech was made during his travels in Europe early in his Presidency and was one of many during that time. I think that he had poor choice of words. To imply that the number of Muslims in the United States is so great that a majority of Americans are Muslim and then by inference make the United States a Muslim country is disingenuous to say the least. Such an error is also beneath my standards as an American citizen for my President. Although there is a substantial number of Muslims in this country, numbers range from a low of 2 million up to 10 million, their numbers in no way can be thought of in terms of making the United States a Muslim country with an overall population of 300 million.

Again, I expect more from my country's leader. We could infer all kinds of things from this but the essence is, he made a comparison that should not have been made.

Health Care debate:

I am one of those that tries to keep track of what is happening in Congress. I receive an email periodically when votes are made in Congress on bills through Yahoo!. So I do know who has voted for what. I also receive other emails like Rasmussen Polls to get a feel for what is going on. I make an effort to educate myself. My reading pile is growing faster than I can read. My current list consists of The Federalist Papers, The Communist Manifesto, Rules for Radicals: A Practical Primer for Realistic Radicals, and the H.R. 3200 - America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009. I do not limit myself.

Writing to your representatives can only get you so far. I have written to mine on several occasions with either condemnation or praise for their vote on certain bills. And I get a dutiful form letter in response. It is the Congressmen that have decided to not take what I have to say about an issue that is frustrating. For example, Senator Boxer is one of two Senators for the State of California. She has an election coming up next year. Because of her general attitude and the issues she puts forth has made become more politically active to make sure that she does not get re-elected. With her condescension most prevalent in Congress no wonder the reactions occurring at the Town Halls. No one is feeling that their concerns are being heard.

Add to the level of frustration of not being heard with staged events and heavy-handed bullying tactics just to be heard, you get what is currently happening. We have our representatives actualy discounting our concerns, "We know what is good for you, so sit down and shut up." The last time I checked we lived in America, with a constitution outlining our rights. One of which is freedom of speech. Speech that allows us to question our government officials. But their attitude and actions belie such a notion.

Government Control:

Here I think the point is governmental involvement. We have a government that is becoming heavily involved in areas that are not only outside of the constitutional allowances but into more and more aspect of everyday life. All in the name of fairness. We have such involvment from personal issues, i.e. abortion, to wages to the way businesses are run. All in the name of protection.

After 9/11 the Patriot Act was passed in the name of protecting the country. This allowed instances that invaded everyone's privacy with the side effect of catching the bad guys. Now we have a bill that in essence does the same thing with the only difference is with party affiliation. This general direction that the government, regardless of party, is taking. Also consider their attitudes towards dissent.

There can be little argument that the internet has had and will always have a major impact on everyone's life in one way or another. Clearly cyber attacks are becoming the battleground of the future. It is a level battle field for all participants regardless of numbers. It can be a lone person or a large group. The means and methods are still the same. To protect from such attacks belongs with the individual systems, not the government. The government can share defensive information but they have no business, either morally or constitutionally, for any more involvement beyond that.

Now if you want to discuss the implications of "provide for the common defense" in reference to the Constitution that is another topic altogether. But suffice it to say that recent actions by our government are suspicious to a point that it is very hard to believe that they have the people's best interests at heart. From staging Town Hall meetings to calling people with opposing views "Un-American," there is very little reason to believe anything that is said or done to be worthy of serious thought. There is no one to blame but the current administration.

With events since the beginning of the current administration, very little has been done to warrant trust in it. Obama and Congress have told falsehoods and have passed bills without the benefit of even knowing what they approved and yet we are to believe that everything will be OK. "Just trust us!" I don't think so. Not when I see heavy-handed tactics being used to justify a position.


Posted by: Patch 12-Aug-2009, 07:28 PM
Day before yesterday the AARP conditionally supported obama's health care. Today it announced that their conditional support has been withdrawn, this after obama said they were in "full" support. How could that be!!??

Slàinte,    

Patch    

Posted by: SCShamrock 13-Aug-2009, 06:01 AM
QUOTE
News outlets that are focusing on the incendiary rhetoric of conservatives outside President Obama's town hall meeting Tuesday ignored the incendiary rhetoric -- and even violence -- of liberals outside an appearance by former President George W. Bush in 2002.

When Bush visited Portland, Ore., for a fundraiser, protesters stalked his motorcade, assailed his limousine and stoned a car containing his advisers. Chanting "Bush is a terrorist!", the demonstrators bullied passers-by, including gay softball players and a wheelchair-bound grandfather with multiple sclerosis.

One protester even brandished a sign that seemed to advocate Bush's assassination. The man held a large photo of Bush that had been doctored to show a gun barrel pressed against his temple.

"BUSH: WANTED, DEAD OR ALIVE," read the placard, which had an X over the word "ALIVE."

Another poster showed Bush's face with the words: "F--- YOU, MOTHERF---ER!"

A third sign urged motorists to "HONK IF YOU HATE BUSH." A fourth declared: "CHRISTIAN FASCISM," with a swastika in place of the letter S in each word.

Although reporters from numerous national news organizations were traveling with Bush and witnessed the protest, none reported that protesters were shrieking at Republican donors epithets like "Slut!" "Whore!" and "Fascists!"

Frank Dulcich, president and CEO of Pacific Seafood Group, had a cup of liquid thrown into his face, and then was surrounded by a group of menacing protesters, including several who wore masks. Donald Tykeson, 75, who had multiple sclerosis and was confined to a wheelchair, was blocked by a thug who threatened him.

Protesters slashed the tires of several state patrol cruisers and leapt onto an occupied police car, slamming the hood and blocking the windshield with placards. A female police officer was knocked to the street by advancing protesters, badly injuring her wrist.

The angry protest grew so violent that the Secret Service was forced to take the highly unusual step of using a backup route for Bush's motorcade because the primary route had been compromised by protesters, one of whom pounded his fist on the president's moving limousine.

All the while, angry demonstrators brandished signs with incendiary rhetoric, such as "9/11 - YOU LET IT HAPPEN, SHRUB," and "BUSH: BASTARD CHILD OF THE SUPREME COURT." One sign read: "IMPEACH THE COURT-APPOINTED JUNTA AND THE FASCIST, EGOMANIACAL, BLOOD-SWILLING BEAST!"

Yet none of these signs were cited in the national media's coverage of the event. By contrast, the press focused extensively on over-the-top signs held by Obama critics at the president's town hall event held Tuesday in New Hampshire.

The lead story in Wednesday's Washington Post, for example, is headlined: "Obama Faces 'Scare Tactics' Head-On."

"As the president spoke, demonstrators outside held posters declaring him a socialist and dubbing him 'Obamahdinejad,' in reference to Iran's president," the Post reported. "People screamed into bullhorns to protest a bigger government role in health care. 'Nobama Deathcare!' one sign read. A young girl held up a sign that said: 'Obama Lies, Grandma Dies.' Images of a protester wearing what appeared to be a gun were shown on television."

On Sunday, The New York Times reported that a Democratic congressman discovered that "an opponent of health care reform hanged him in effigy" and was confronted by "200 angry conservatives." The article lamented "increasingly ugly scenes of partisan screaming matches, scuffles, threats and even arrests."

No such coverage was given to the Portland protest of Bush by The New York Times or the Washington Post, which witnessed the protest.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/12/analysis-press-largely-ignored-incendiary-rhetoric-bush-protest/

Posted by: Patch 13-Aug-2009, 07:02 AM
S J Lee,democrat congresswoman from the Huston Tx area, took a phone call during a question from from a constituent. (the second question of the meeting.) She claimed it was from someone she had called in response to the first question. It later became known that she lied.

Unfortunately typical behavior for most of our political (parasites). It seems to be worse with the newer crop.

The town hall meetings are changing the polls and the change is picking up speed!

Slàinte,    

Patch    

Posted by: Patch 13-Aug-2009, 07:18 AM
I just heard that some D legislators are requiring a photo ID for entrance to a town hall meeting to keep people from other geographic areas out. Most, if not all, voted a couple of years ago to allow "citizens" to vote without a picture ID. For voting they felt it was placing the bar too high!!

There is certainly something wrong with that picture.

Does it seem to the rest of you that the D's are grabbing for straws?" To ammend this, I should also add there a couple of R's and I's involved too.

Slàinte,

Patch

Posted by: stevenpd 13-Aug-2009, 09:11 AM
It appears that when the message gets opposed, in whatever manner, the messenger gets attacked. This is does nothing to add to the discussion.

Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee's acceptance of a phone call during a question from her constituent is not only bad phone etiquette but only strengthens the appearance that not only does not care about the question but the issue as well. And people wonder with incidents like these why the attempts to be heard in any manner appear so loud.

Posted by: Antwn 13-Aug-2009, 02:08 PM
QUOTE (stevenpd @ 12-Aug-2009, 06:18 PM)
Now if you want to discuss the implications of "provide for the common defense" in reference to the Constitution that is another topic altogether. But suffice it to say that recent actions by our government are suspicious to a point that it is very hard to believe that they have the people's best interests at heart. From staging Town Hall meetings to calling people with opposing views "Un-American," there is very little reason to believe anything that is said or done to be worthy of serious thought. There is no one to blame but the current administration.

With events since the beginning of the current administration, very little has been done to warrant trust in it. Obama and Congress have told falsehoods and have passed bills without the benefit of even knowing what they approved and yet we are to believe that everything will be OK. "Just trust us!" I don't think so. Not when I see heavy-handed tactics being used to justify a position.

Muslim comment context:

This speech was made during his travels in Europe early in his Presidency and was one of many during that time. I think that he had poor choice of words. To imply that the number of Muslims in the United States is so great that a majority of Americans are Muslim and then by inference make the United States a Muslim country is disingenuous to say the least. Such an error is also beneath my standards as an American citizen for my President. Although there is a substantial number of Muslims in this country, numbers range from a low of 2 million up to 10 million, their numbers in no way can be thought of in terms of making the United States a Muslim country with an overall population of 300 million.


Poor choice of words in making a point, yes I can see that. Not only that but its a silly statement. But read between the lines here. He's trying to bridge an US vs THEM mentality with the Muslim world by making the point that the US has millions of Muslims as well. By way of analogy, you could say the US is a Spanish speaking country. Practically every business' customer service departments have Spanish speaking options, you can literally spend a day in downtown Miami without hearing a word of English (I've done it) - yet its all a matter of context. Saying the US is a Spanish speaking country doesn't mean the majority speaks that language nor does it mean the US is solely Spanish speaking, yet the comment is not inaccurate given the proper context in which its made - meaning you'll find so much support here along with the ability to live, work and participate in society if you're monolingual in Spanish that the statement is true. I'm just suggesting credit be given for the same contextual nuance in Obama's statements.

Again, I expect more from my country's leader. We could infer all kinds of things from this but the essence is, he made a comparison that should not have been made.

Agreed. Mistake on his part.

Add to the level of frustration of not being heard with staged events and heavy-handed bullying tactics just to be heard, you get what is currently happening. We have our representatives actually discounting our concerns, "We know what is good for you, so sit down and shut up." The last time I checked we lived in America, with a constitution outlining our rights. One of which is freedom of speech. Speech that allows us to question our government officials. But their attitude and actions belie such a notion.

I have no argument with this nor your paragraph preceding it.

After 9/11 the Patriot Act was passed in the name of protecting the country. This allowed instances that invaded everyone's privacy with the side effect of catching the bad guys. Now we have a bill that in essence does the same thing with the only difference is with party affiliation. This general direction that the government, regardless of party, is taking. Also consider their attitudes towards dissent.

I have no dispute with this. I'm also very concerned about the Patriot Act and the extent of government control and penetration of their authority in everyday life.

To protect from such attacks belongs with the individual systems, not the government. The government can share defensive information but they have no business, either morally or constitutionally, for any more involvement beyond that.

This may be ideal but it also may be unrealistic. Given the interconnectedness of the internet, it may be possible to disable or destroy large interdependent and absolutely vital infrastructures, beyond just defense. Although individual systems may have their own protections in place, they do not cooperate with each other and remain untested. Granted this is all speculative, but the point is, should an attack infect vital systems, and a domino effect is created by their disabling, then some intervening authority may need to shut down systems in vital areas. Given the susceptibility of the financial industry alone to the actions of a cabal of greedy bank executives, how disabling would a cyber attack be to that industry and who would stifle the ripple effect? You're going to trust the competence of the IT heads of the systems themselves to coordinate efforts? What about the simultaneous shut down of gas, electric, telecommunications and banking by cyber attack in mid-winter? Who would coordinate recovery efforts? No one would have the authority to contain the continued effect of such an attack if no one had authority over the internet itself - you see? Who would contain it if an authority hadn't been put into place to do so.

As odious and scary as it is to allow such uber-authority over the net and our lives, I don't think leaving it up to private industry in the above scenario is tenable. I say that in full recall of the incompetence of FEMA during Katrina - "trust us we're the government" is not a statement I'd respond to by saying "okee dokee" either. But lets look at the response demands potential scenarios create. You want to be caught with our pants down?

I have to confess to have mixed feelings about all of this. I do not disagree with you and share your concerns about government control. There's a book by Adam Wildavsky (spelling?) concerning risk and safety where he asserts the best response is resilience - as opposed to setting up rigid systems for every contingency, and your idea would seem to be in line with that philosophy. I see great wisdom in that. Given the dangers, what trade offs are we willing to make, and how much of this projected loss of liberty is paranoia? That's my struggle here.

Vigilance is the price of liberty, I know. But to interpret nefarious intent at every twitch of a finger of government authority is the opposite extreme. A balance is needed. That was the thrust of all my posts - to confront the boisterous and rather idiotic hyperbole and conspiratorial ranting that began these discussions. Our views differ, yes, but I don't think we're too far apart on our positions - I'm trying to bring out people's real ideas in order to distinguish them from the pukefest of Chicken Littleism.




Posted by: Antwn 13-Aug-2009, 02:26 PM
QUOTE (stevenpd @ 12-Aug-2009, 06:18 PM)
From staging Town Hall meetings to calling people with opposing views "Un-American," there is very little reason to believe anything that is said or done to be worthy of serious thought. There is no one to blame but the current administration.

Gee, where have we seen this tactic used before? Who popularized it?


Posted by: Antwn 13-Aug-2009, 02:37 PM
QUOTE (SCShamrock @ 13-Aug-2009, 07:01 AM)
QUOTE
News outlets that are focusing on the incendiary rhetoric of conservatives outside President Obama's town hall meeting Tuesday ignored the incendiary rhetoric -- and even violence -- of liberals outside an appearance by former President George W. Bush in 2002.

When Bush visited Portland, Ore., for a fundraiser, protesters stalked his motorcade, assailed his limousine and stoned a car containing his advisers. Chanting "Bush is a terrorist!", the demonstrators bullied passers-by, including gay softball players and a wheelchair-bound grandfather with multiple sclerosis.

One protester even brandished a sign that seemed to advocate Bush's assassination. The man held a large photo of Bush that had been doctored to show a gun barrel pressed against his temple.

"BUSH: WANTED, DEAD OR ALIVE," read the placard, which had an X over the word "ALIVE."

Another poster showed Bush's face with the words: "F--- YOU, MOTHERF---ER!"

A third sign urged motorists to "HONK IF YOU HATE BUSH." A fourth declared: "CHRISTIAN FASCISM," with a swastika in place of the letter S in each word.

Although reporters from numerous national news organizations were traveling with Bush and witnessed the protest, none reported that protesters were shrieking at Republican donors epithets like "Slut!" "Whore!" and "Fascists!"

Frank Dulcich, president and CEO of Pacific Seafood Group, had a cup of liquid thrown into his face, and then was surrounded by a group of menacing protesters, including several who wore masks. Donald Tykeson, 75, who had multiple sclerosis and was confined to a wheelchair, was blocked by a thug who threatened him.

Protesters slashed the tires of several state patrol cruisers and leapt onto an occupied police car, slamming the hood and blocking the windshield with placards. A female police officer was knocked to the street by advancing protesters, badly injuring her wrist.

The angry protest grew so violent that the Secret Service was forced to take the highly unusual step of using a backup route for Bush's motorcade because the primary route had been compromised by protesters, one of whom pounded his fist on the president's moving limousine.

All the while, angry demonstrators brandished signs with incendiary rhetoric, such as "9/11 - YOU LET IT HAPPEN, SHRUB," and "BUSH: BASTARD CHILD OF THE SUPREME COURT." One sign read: "IMPEACH THE COURT-APPOINTED JUNTA AND THE FASCIST, EGOMANIACAL, BLOOD-SWILLING BEAST!"

Yet none of these signs were cited in the national media's coverage of the event. By contrast, the press focused extensively on over-the-top signs held by Obama critics at the president's town hall event held Tuesday in New Hampshire.

The lead story in Wednesday's Washington Post, for example, is headlined: "Obama Faces 'Scare Tactics' Head-On."

"As the president spoke, demonstrators outside held posters declaring him a socialist and dubbing him 'Obamahdinejad,' in reference to Iran's president," the Post reported. "People screamed into bullhorns to protest a bigger government role in health care. 'Nobama Deathcare!' one sign read. A young girl held up a sign that said: 'Obama Lies, Grandma Dies.' Images of a protester wearing what appeared to be a gun were shown on television."

On Sunday, The New York Times reported that a Democratic congressman discovered that "an opponent of health care reform hanged him in effigy" and was confronted by "200 angry conservatives." The article lamented "increasingly ugly scenes of partisan screaming matches, scuffles, threats and even arrests."

No such coverage was given to the Portland protest of Bush by The New York Times or the Washington Post, which witnessed the protest.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/12/analysis-press-largely-ignored-incendiary-rhetoric-bush-protest/

What's the point then of worrying about whether Bush or Obama are right if the're equally culpable for the same dirty political tactics Shamrock? They have each been lambasted with the same extreme rhetoric, both sides accuse dissenters of being Un-American. Instead of taking sides and fueling the conflagration, why not unite against the tactic itself? That's what's truly Un-American.

Posted by: Patch 13-Aug-2009, 02:51 PM
Pelosi announced that the new health care will cost us nothing. 500 million will be cut from medicare, which covers the elderly and the disabled. and 500 million will be raised from the "rich." The rich are already shielding their money to avoid the tax and unless the 500 million in medicare benefits is put back somewhere else, thus no savings, it amounts to passive euthanasia. You do not have to give people a shot or pill to kill them, just block their care.

Slàinte,    

Patch    

Posted by: stoirmeil 13-Aug-2009, 05:08 PM
QUOTE (Antwn @ 13-Aug-2009, 03:37 PM)

What's the point then of worrying about whether Bush or Obama are right if the're equally culpable for the same dirty political tactics Shamrock? They have each been lambasted with the same extreme rhetoric, both sides accuse dissenters of being Un-American. Instead of taking sides and fueling the conflagration, why not unite against the tactic itself? That's what's truly Un-American.

It may be un-American if we have some kind of ideal vision of American mores as being generous and forgiving -- not sure that one carries out past the level of ideals into concrete practice. We would like to think it's un-American to trade ignorant, ugly low blow for low blow -- we can agree on that, most likely. I am disgusted myself when the liberal expression in protest takes that kind of turn.

But in this case, it appears to me that it's more of an aggrieved, personal tit-for-tat position: "How come they can do it and get away with it, and we/I can't?" Shamrock has also spoken on various occasions of his dissatisfaction with minority cultural expressions that would be disapproved of, or squashed down, if they were being expressed by whites. Seems to be of a piece.

Posted by: SCShamrock 13-Aug-2009, 05:49 PM
QUOTE (Antwn @ 13-Aug-2009, 03:37 PM)

What's the point then of worrying about whether Bush or Obama are right if the're equally culpable for the same dirty political tactics Shamrock? They have each been lambasted with the same extreme rhetoric, both sides accuse dissenters of being Un-American. Instead of taking sides and fueling the conflagration, why not unite against the tactic itself? That's what's truly Un-American.

Where have you seen me call protestors un-american on either side of the political aisle? My point in posting the story (did you even read it?) was to show the bias in the media reporting. Talk about a leap.

By the way, I don't think there is any "conflagration" concerning the town hall meetings and the protestors. People are exercising their constitutional right to speech, and for that the media and the Pelosi's of the nation accuse them of being Nazis. Where do you stand on that issue?

Posted by: SCShamrock 13-Aug-2009, 05:55 PM
QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 13-Aug-2009, 06:08 PM)
We would like to think it's un-American to trade ignorant, ugly low blow for low blow -- we can agree on that, most likely. I am disgusted myself when the liberal expression in protest takes that kind of turn.

But in this case, it appears to me that it's more of an aggrieved, personal tit-for-tat position: "How come they can do it and get away with it, and we/I can't?" Shamrock has also spoken on various occasions of his dissatisfaction with minority cultural expressions that would be disapproved of, or squashed down, if they were being expressed by whites. Seems to be of a piece.

I don't like the tit-for-tat either. I'll tell you as well, I was quoting the news piece only to show the bias in the media. Anyone who reads past the first line in many of my posts already knows how I feel about that. The media is the propaganda arm of the Liberal Left, and it's been that way for eons. I take pride in helping to expose that, so draw any unfounded conclusions you wish.

Posted by: stevenpd 13-Aug-2009, 05:59 PM
I must make a correction here on some of my previous statements. The "Muslim country" comment was made during his travels to the Middle East but the comment was made during an interview with French TV on June 1, 2009 not during his Cairo speech.

Here is a transcript: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Transcript-of-the-Interview-of-the-President-by-Laura-Haim-Canal-Plus-6-1-09/

QUOTE
stevenpd

To protect from such attacks belongs with the individual systems, not the government. The government can share defensive information but they have no business, either morally or constitutionally, for any more involvement beyond that.


QUOTE
antwn

This may be ideal but it also may be unrealistic. Given the interconnectedness of the internet, it may be possible to disable or destroy large interdependent and absolutely vital infrastructures, beyond just defense. Although individual systems may have their own protections in place, they do not cooperate with each other and remain untested. Granted this is all speculative, but the point is, should an attack infect vital systems, and a domino effect is created by their disabling, then some intervening authority may need to shut down systems in vital areas. Given the susceptibility of the financial industry alone to the actions of a cabal of greedy bank executives, how disabling would a cyber attack be to that industry and who would stifle the ripple effect? You're going to trust the competence of the IT heads of the systems themselves to coordinate efforts? What about the simultaneous shut down of gas, electric, telecommunications and banking by cyber attack in mid-winter? Who would coordinate recovery efforts? No one would have the authority to contain the continued effect of such an attack if no one had authority over the internet itself - you see? Who would contain it if an authority hadn't been put into place to do so.

As odious and scary as it is to allow such uber-authority over the net and our lives, I don't think leaving it up to private industry in the above scenario is tenable. I say that in full recall of the incompetence of FEMA during Katrina - "trust us we're the government" is not a statement I'd respond to by saying "okee dokee" either. But lets look at the response demands potential scenarios create. You want to be caught with our pants down?

I have to confess to have mixed feelings about all of this. I do not disagree with you and share your concerns about government control. There's a book by Adam Wildavsky (spelling?) concerning risk and safety where he asserts the best response is resilience - as opposed to setting up rigid systems for every contingency, and your idea would seem to be in line with that philosophy. I see great wisdom in that. Given the dangers, what trade offs are we willing to make, and how much of this projected loss of liberty is paranoia? That's my struggle here.

Vigilance is the price of liberty, I know. But to interpret nefarious intent at every twitch of a finger of government authority is the opposite extreme. A balance is needed. That was the thrust of all my posts - to confront the boisterous and rather idiotic hyperbole and conspiratorial ranting that began these discussions. Our views differ, yes, but I don't think we're too far apart on our positions - I'm trying to bring out people's real ideas in order to distinguish them from the pukefest of Chicken Littleism.


I don’t think it is unrealistic to maintain a decentralized network in place versus a centralized one. The concept is more along the lines that you have stated about being resilient rather than rigid. This fluidity is what makes the internet so responsive, and at the same time, risky.

I think you are referring to “Searching for Safety” by Aaron Wildavsky. “While he agrees that society should sometimes try to prevent large harms from occurring, he explains why such anticipatory measures are usually inferior to a strategy of resilience - learning from error how to bounce back in better shape. His purpose is to shift the risk debate from passive prevention of harm to active search for safety.” (Amazon.com Product Description)

It also comes down to personal responsibility at the corporate level. This is where capitalism shines because it is in the best interest of the company not to be shut down. So if it is in their best interest not be shut down why do we need the government to do it? They also inadvertently cooperate with each other just by protecting themselves from outside attack thereby creating this decentralized world that has the ability to limit any outside influence. And if is the case what need is there for government influence or protection? I believe that the internet is much more dynamic than you realize which can only get bogged down with bureaucratic red tape to a point of not working at all.

As evidence of the private sector doing what it does best look at the anti-virus programs and their evolution. There many brands of various levels of effectiveness. Now, not only do we have off-the-shelf solutions but the industry itself has its own sphere of influence. They are so large now they are actually providing timely information about what is going on within the internet to anyone that will listen.

Yes, vigilance is the price for liberty. One aspect of vigilance is, and I don’t think that it is paranoia, to think through the potential scenarios to arrive at a logical conclusion. The government is already so pervasive as to warrant concern as evidenced by the health care debate currently going on. Everyone must draw their own line in the sand.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin.



Posted by: Antwn 14-Aug-2009, 02:40 PM
QUOTE (stevenpd @ 13-Aug-2009, 06:59 PM)
I think you are referring to “Searching for Safety” by Aaron Wildavsky. “While he agrees that society should sometimes try to prevent large harms from occurring, he explains why such anticipatory measures are usually inferior to a strategy of resilience - learning from error how to bounce back in better shape. His purpose is to shift the risk debate from passive prevention of harm to active search for safety.” (Amazon.com Product Description)

It also comes down to personal responsibility at the corporate level. This is where capitalism shines because it is in the best interest of the company not to be shut down. So if it is in their best interest not be shut down why do we need the government to do it? They also inadvertently cooperate with each other just by protecting themselves from outside attack thereby creating this decentralized world that has the ability to limit any outside influence. And if is the case what need is there for government influence or protection? I believe that the internet is much more dynamic than you realize which can only get bogged down with bureaucratic red tape to a point of not working at all.

As evidence of the private sector doing what it does best look at the anti-virus programs and their evolution. There many brands of various levels of effectiveness. Now, not only do we have off-the-shelf solutions but the industry itself has its own sphere of influence. They are so large now they are actually providing timely information about what is going on within the internet to anyone that will listen.

Yes, vigilance is the price for liberty. One aspect of vigilance is, and I don’t think that it is paranoia, to think through the potential scenarios to arrive at a logical conclusion. The government is already so pervasive as to warrant concern as evidenced by the health care debate currently going on. Everyone must draw their own line in the sand.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin.

Yes, that's the guy! He's on my reading list that like yours has piled high. You've made some excellent points here, and yes everyone must draw their own line in the sand, but tell me really - what's your concern with this particular government aspiration? Are you afraid that they'll close down the internet entirely for reasons of censorship not legitimate security concerns? Are you concerned that their line in the sand will be drawn with different parameters? Are you just leary of them generally and want to limit their reach in any area of social commerce? All of the above? Do you think a closing down of the internet for other than legitimate security concerns would survive a Supreme Court speech challenge? We're not China.

Posted by: Antwn 14-Aug-2009, 02:48 PM
QUOTE (SCShamrock @ 13-Aug-2009, 06:49 PM)
QUOTE (Antwn @ 13-Aug-2009, 03:37 PM)

What's the point then of worrying about whether Bush or Obama are right if the're equally culpable for the same dirty political tactics Shamrock? They have each been lambasted with the same extreme rhetoric, both sides accuse dissenters of being Un-American. Instead of taking sides and fueling the conflagration, why not unite against the tactic itself? That's what's truly Un-American.

Where have you seen me call protestors un-american on either side of the political aisle? My point in posting the story (did you even read it?) was to show the bias in the media reporting. Talk about a leap.

By the way, I don't think there is any "conflagration" concerning the town hall meetings and the protestors. People are exercising their constitutional right to speech, and for that the media and the Pelosi's of the nation accuse them of being Nazis. Where do you stand on that issue?

No, you weren't the one using the term Un-American. But you've been the most vociferous about the insult to your sense of fairness concerning verbal abuses of Bush and all but implied that Obama is treated with kid gloves. I'm just suggesting it might be better to resist the tactic itself as unproductive and backhanded rather than focus on the fact that Obama in his first 8 months has not suffered the slings and arrows of outrageous verbiage to equal measure as Bush during his 8 years.

Posted by: SCShamrock 14-Aug-2009, 05:36 PM
QUOTE (Antwn @ 14-Aug-2009, 03:48 PM)
But you've been the most vociferous about the insult to your sense of fairness concerning verbal abuses of Bush and all but implied that Obama is treated with kid gloves. I'm just suggesting it might be better to resist the tactic itself as unproductive and backhanded rather than focus on the fact that Obama in his first 8 months has not suffered the slings and arrows of outrageous verbiage to equal measure as Bush during his 8 years.

I didn't mean to imply that. I meant to say it outright. He is treated with kid gloves (very good idiom in this case), and unjustifiably so. However, regardless of your opinions, I will never curtail my speech to make it more comfortable for those around me when the insidiousness of the biased propaganda arm of the liberal left, the media, continues to push a liberal/socialist agenda by damning every conservative person (private citizens included) while praising those whose ideology is counter to the moral and ethical standards of this country, which is often a direct attack on the Constitution, and which is by necessity heretical in nature. Of course Obama hasn't suffered in 8 months what Bush did in 8 years. He will never receive a proportionate amount of "slings and arrows" as did Bush, and would have to serve 20 terms to come close to receiving an equal amount. Do you agree or disagree that Obama is held aloft by CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, TNYT, TWP, just to name a few?

Posted by: Antwn 14-Aug-2009, 06:42 PM
QUOTE (SCShamrock @ 14-Aug-2009, 06:36 PM)
I didn't mean to imply that. I meant to say it outright. He is treated with kid gloves (very good idiom in this case), and unjustifiably so. However, regardless of your opinions, I will never curtail my speech to make it more comfortable for those around me when the insidiousness of the biased propaganda arm of the liberal left, the media, continues to push a liberal/socialist agenda by damning every conservative person (private citizens included) while praising those whose ideology is counter to the moral and ethical standards of this country, which is often a direct attack on the Constitution, and which is by necessity heretical in nature. Of course Obama hasn't suffered in 8 months what Bush did in 8 years. He will never receive a proportionate amount of "slings and arrows" as did Bush, and would have to serve 20 terms to come close to receiving an equal amount. Do you agree or disagree that Obama is held aloft by CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, TNYT, TWP, just to name a few?

Stop whining! The media bias you refer to is more than countered by the Limbaughs, Savages and Laura Ingrams of talk radio! Limbaugh alone probably has more listeners than CNN and more loyal. You'll never hear of network TV viewers referred to affectionately as "dittoheads". They're not.


Posted by: Antwn 14-Aug-2009, 07:02 PM
Yes, I know news stations report news and talk radio is commentary and entertainment, but we're talking about the nature of bias here, not information. Besides there's such blending of news and commentary on network/cable TV anyway that no one even attempts to make distinctions - its as if the anchor's opinions are news. Then when you add the yellers and screamers and gangs of interviewees and so called experts who talk over one another so much that you can't even hear any of their points, then the dysfunctionality meter heads to the red zone.

Posted by: SCShamrock 14-Aug-2009, 09:19 PM
Now I'm a whiner. Oh boy, guess you'll say anything to keep the exposure of liberal media at a minimum. Nice try. thumbs_up.gif

Do you really think the looney left is countered by Limbaugh, Savage, and Ingram? You're more delusional that I thought. Those who go to the Looney Toons Left are not hearing anything Limbaugh and Co. says. That's what makes the lying bastards in liberal media so dangerous...they have indoctrinated their listeners and viewers to the point of automated responses; in other words they're brainwashed. That's why you find them [viewers/listeners] foaming at the mouth at the town hall meetings telling protestors to sit down and shut up, because they need health care. It's the moth to the flame effect, and they are completely oblivious.


Posted by: stevenpd 15-Aug-2009, 11:05 AM
QUOTE (Antwn @ 14-Aug-2009, 01:40 PM)
what's your concern with this particular government aspiration? Are you afraid that they'll close down the internet entirely for reasons of censorship not legitimate security concerns? Are you concerned that their line in the sand will be drawn with different parameters? Are you just leary of them generally and want to limit their reach in any area of social commerce? All of the above? Do you think a closing down of the internet for other than legitimate security concerns would survive a Supreme Court speech challenge? We're not China.

Basically it is my line in the sand. The health care issue is the most emboldened attempt to date for governmental intrusion. To me it is nothing more than a power grab. The insidiousness of the health care debate is while our attention is focused on that issue what else are they doing? I would not put it past the current administration to attempt further intrusion as evidenced by the Cyber Security Act.

In my previous posts I think that I have made it clear that I do not believe that government should be involved. And yet it is this continuous march toward intrusion that must be stopped.

I'll repeat my contention that it would be extremely difficult for the government to control a decentralized internet. It could only occur through law. This law could be the blanket coverage which would require everyone to act in a particular way. i.e. shut down or restrict access. With the double-speak shown in the H.R. 3200 bill, a lack of interest shown by those who are supposed to vote on it by simply not reading it, and the speed with which the administration is trying to enact it, I am very dubious about our representatives' and the administration's reasoning behind it. I can only speak to the actions regardless of what is said. For I think them all liars.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Just look at the number of our representatives that have made a living out of being a politician. The most egregious that I can name off the top of my head are Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Ted Kennedy, Barbara Boxer, John Murtha, Arlen Specter, and Dianne Feinstein.

Our current judicial system is not about interpreting laws but to distorting them to fit some sense of morality. This judicial activism creates law by caveat not law interpretation. Why do you think that the powers that be get so distressed over who gets appointed to the Supreme court rather than their impartiality? With relative morality being the guide anything goes. And therefore, the inmates are in charge of the asylum. And the common man suffers as a result.

Granted, we are not in China with a communist government, nor do we have the likes of Kim Jung Il, Pol Pot, Stalin, or Hitler in charge. But I see this creep in a direction away from individual responsibility and inherent freedom. America has not become the place where everyone desires to arrive at without cause. It has been this way since our inception and I have no desire to see America devolve into something our founding fathers worked so hard to get away from.

Posted by: stevenpd 15-Aug-2009, 11:48 AM
QUOTE (Antwn @ 14-Aug-2009, 05:42 PM)
Stop whining! The media bias you refer to is more than countered by the Limbaughs, Savages and Laura Ingrams of talk radio! Limbaugh alone probably has more listeners than CNN and more loyal. You'll never hear of network TV viewers referred to affectionately as "dittoheads". They're not.

On this point I will have to disagree. I don't think it is whining to state a fact.

Media outlets are not limited to simply radio and television. There are newspapers, magazines, books, and even movies. When you take the "media" in totality I don't think that you can argue that the "media" is balanced.

Constant attacks against conservatives within media are constant. A Fair Media Act is nothing more than an attempt to stifle open discussion and control debate. A question here, if the general populace is willing to support/pay for a particular media outlet why go counter to that by law? Air America is such an attempt to provide an alternative viewpoint to conservative radio. Has it gained the level of popularity of even some of the lesser known conservative talk shows? I don't think so.

So we must ask ourselves why this is. Could it be that no one wants to listen to this point of view? If people, in a free market, choose not to listen/participate in such programming do you then force them to listen? Some will say, but they only listen to conservative talk radio. Then why? Is it because they find something similar to what they think and believe in? They are free to listen to anything they want voluntarily. They do not need to be forced into listening to something that they do not believe in or is contrary to what they want. Such is a free market system.

But the liberal mindset is different. They say we want people to hear our message and the only way for them to hear it is to force media outlets to present it. Unfortunately, the only way for this to happen is through law, i.e. Fair Media Act. Liberal media outlets are numerous and varied. Yet they still feel that they are the underdog and not being heard. So the only way for liberals to get their message out is to force all media outlets to be equal. Equality is the goal. With a majority of the media outlets leaning towards a liberal agenda one would assume that they give up some by having a conservative providing an opposing view. But they do not because they control what is broadcast. So a conservative comes on for the first ten minutes and then gets lambasted for the remainder of the allotted time with no opportunity to respond to anything, thereby giving the last word to a liberal. No interactive discussion, no debate. Time was allotted and used. It was the structure of the interaction that was controlled. This control is what they are after.

Posted by: Antwn 15-Aug-2009, 02:45 PM
QUOTE (stevenpd @ 15-Aug-2009, 12:05 PM)
Our current judicial system is not about interpreting laws but to distorting them to fit some sense of morality. This judicial activism creates law by caveat not law interpretation. Why do you think that the powers that be get so distressed over who gets appointed to the Supreme court rather than their impartiality? With relative morality being the guide anything goes. And therefore, the inmates are in charge of the asylum. And the common man suffers as a result.


"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Boy, what does that say about God? Oops! Wrong thread. angel_not.gif

Thanks for your posts steven, interesting discussion and I think you've defined where your line is in the sand pretty clearly.

Could you give some examples please of laws which the SC has distorted "to fit some sense of morality"? Are you thinking of Sotomayor's infamous comment that white men can't judge, or actual rulings? Are you referring to rulings which fit a politically correct social reorganization ideology? Do you have specific rulings in mind which best exemplify "fit some sense of morality"?

As social ideologies change legal interpretations often correlate. One example is the SC ruling striking down sodomy laws a few years ago. In fact, comments in the majority opinion mentioned that an attempt to correspond to alterations in social mores about homosexual behavior was among the reasons for the decision. So in this case, one person's distortion is another's progress.

Could you please clarify?

Posted by: Antwn 15-Aug-2009, 04:38 PM
QUOTE (stevenpd @ 15-Aug-2009, 12:05 PM)
Basically it is my line in the sand. The health care issue is the most emboldened attempt to date for governmental intrusion. To me it is nothing more than a power grab. The insidiousness of the health care debate is while our attention is focused on that issue what else are they doing? I would not put it past the current administration to attempt further intrusion as evidenced by the Cyber Security Act.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to resist any government health care program at all. Did you consider Medicaid/Care intrusion? If so, an acceptable one? Should the government refrain from assisting people who can't afford medical care or medication? If medical bills are the leading cause of bankruptcy, should the attitude simply be tough luck Charlie? Healthcare is a leading cause of debt, individual and by extension national. Do you just not want to pay for the health care of others who can't afford their own? Single people pay through property taxes for schools when they don't personally have children. Taxes cover Medicaid/care, programs for the poor, school lunch programs etc. Is health care a right or priveledge? Driving is considered a privilege though your taxes pay for road upkeep for all as well as public transportation for all. If government health care participation is optional, and you're able to keep a plan you have if you desire, where's the intrusion?


Posted by: SCShamrock 15-Aug-2009, 05:38 PM
I have a few questions. What is wrong with our health care system that it warrants government control? Do we not have premier health care available in this nation? I think the answer to that is, yes, we do. However, the issue seems to be getting more and more sullied by including all points equal; i.e., access, cost, insurance, etc. In my estimation, the health care system as a whole does not require retooling. Access to quality care and affordable coverage does. So why is every facet of the system up for being overhauled?

Posted by: Antwn 15-Aug-2009, 06:10 PM
QUOTE (SCShamrock @ 15-Aug-2009, 06:38 PM)
I have a few questions. What is wrong with our health care system that it warrants government control? Do we not have premier health care available in this nation? I think the answer to that is, yes, we do. However, the issue seems to be getting more and more sullied by including all points equal; i.e., access, cost, insurance, etc. In my estimation, the health care system as a whole does not require retooling. Access to quality care and affordable coverage does. So why is every facet of the system up for being overhauled?

I don't think the quality of care is what's under dispute either. Its access and availability. How will availability be increased, particularly among the millions who can't afford insurance. Also how do those who do have insurance and who face debilitating or long term care situations refrain from going bankrupt because of medical bills. How do seniors afford expensive medications and avoid situations where they must choose between food and meds. There is alot to revamp, and I agree that the focus should not be on care quality, but on care access. I think that's the major bone of contention. The methods by which that's improved.

Access has many facets. How do you define access to care when an HMO decides to eliminate payments for a critical procedure, or you're denied coverage for a pre-existing condition? That's why consideration is being given to revamping the entire system. Not for those reasons alone, just examples. What's fair? How are the millions of currently un/under insured given greater access? Et cetera.

Posted by: stoirmeil 15-Aug-2009, 08:47 PM
I think quality of care has to be evaluated on average, too, not just as the best possible whether it's widely available or not. We do have some of the best and most expert physicians in the world here, absolutely cutting edge, but not every hospital can afford to have many -- or any-- of them on staff. You may or may not have access to the best care on that basis. Keeping on training them, and then keeping them in the industry, is part of the tangle of costs and I believe it can't be separated from it. It's predicted to reach a crisis point in the next 10 to 15 years -- the number of doctors who stay in the industry for their whole working life is dropping more all the time.

It's a tripod of issues as I see it -- it keeps costing more to train them as the price of their long educational process rises; they keep saddling themselves with greater and greater loans to meet that cost; they keep expecting that they deserve as well as need to make enough to cover not only their loans but also the massive malpractice insurance fees that are also always rising; and so insurance costs that can reasonably cover doctors' financial needs and make it worthwhile for them to practice at all, have to keep a rising pace too (along with their own profit-making interests).

Now -- that calls for some shake-up reform in its own right. There need to be subsidized programs to keep making world-class doctors out of any kids that have the brains and the dedication, and it should be a priority; there needs to be serious malpractice tort reform and a cap on settlements; and there needs to be much stiffer regulation of the entire insurance industry. Everybody's assumptions about what's normal have to change -- what doctors expect to make yearly would be substantially lower, but so would their education and malpractice costs, hopefully an approximately fair offset if it were regulated intelligently; and what insurance companies expect as reasonable profit would be radically changed. When medicine and the peripheral industries of malpractice law and insurance are ALL essentially for profit, there's no way to assure continuity of the best, world-class care that we know we are capable of. If you can think of another way to downramp all these excesses, which have long since spiralled out of control, other than government regulation, I would be all for hearing about it.

I'd be very happy for any comments on this. I team-teach a class with a clinical psych person (for the record, it's "Psychopathology Represented in Literature and Film") -- we do our freshman composition classes here with a wide selection of specific content components along with the writing, and this one was designed for pre-med kids, a very hand-picked and motivated little group. I was thinking of setting this "tripod" topic as a diagnostic in-class writing assignment, to see where their writing skills are before we start, since the issues affect them all so much.

Sorry if this went a little off topic -- but the town hall things have been about health care in general. Maybe some of these issues need to be in a sister bill to the one up for approval now.

Posted by: stoirmeil 15-Aug-2009, 08:59 PM
QUOTE (SCShamrock @ 13-Aug-2009, 06:55 PM)
QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 13-Aug-2009, 06:08 PM)
We would like to think it's un-American to trade ignorant, ugly low blow for low blow -- we can agree on that, most likely.  I am disgusted myself when the liberal expression in protest takes that kind of turn. 

But in this case, it appears to me that it's more of an aggrieved, personal tit-for-tat position:  "How come they can do it and get away with it, and we/I can't?"  Shamrock has also spoken on various occasions of his dissatisfaction with minority cultural expressions that would be disapproved of, or squashed down, if they were being expressed by whites.  Seems to be of a piece.

I don't like the tit-for-tat either. I'll tell you as well, I was quoting the news piece only to show the bias in the media. Anyone who reads past the first line in many of my posts already knows how I feel about that. The media is the propaganda arm of the Liberal Left, and it's been that way for eons. I take pride in helping to expose that, so draw any unfounded conclusions you wish.

And draw any conclusions at all that you wish, only pull back on the right-wing talk-show style of flaming, name-calling, and guilt by analogous and inaccurate association with governmental evils from communism to nazism to anarchy. This style assumes that all you have to do is invoke those labels, and you have served a dual purpose of making the point beyond all argument, and stirring up the potful of fear and rage. No, let me modify that: Patch does the gloom and doom fear part -- you have the practical monopoly on rage.

Posted by: Antwn 16-Aug-2009, 02:13 PM
QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 15-Aug-2009, 09:47 PM)
I think quality of care has to be evaluated on average, too, not just as the best possible whether it's widely available or not. We do have some of the best and most expert physicians in the world here, absolutely cutting edge, but not every hospital can afford to have many -- or any-- of them on staff. You may or may not have access to the best care on that basis. Keeping on training them, and then keeping them in the industry, is part of the tangle of costs and I believe it can't be separated from it. It's predicted to reach a crisis point in the next 10 to 15 years -- the number of doctors who stay in the industry for their whole working life is dropping more all the time.

You make some good points here, not just about maintaining the attractiveness of medicine as a profession, but I think similar points can be made for the insurance industry. That's why I don't believe we'll have a complete government take-over of health care where the insurance companies are eliminated or subjugated to government authority and regulation to such an extent that profitability becomes inviable. Care needs to be taken in this. That's why an options bill is far more likely than the government power takes all idea fearmongers rant about.

Boy I'd like to take that course you mentioned. There are numerous examples in both literature and film. Fascinating ones too from Poe to Stanley Kubrick.

Posted by: stevenpd 18-Aug-2009, 12:49 PM
QUOTE
Gee, where have we seen this tactic used before? Who popularized it?


Although I think a lot of people like to think Nixon started I think it was going on much earlier. No one has either uncovered it before or through disbelief, disclosed such activity. It really does not matter. It is currently being done and disclosed.

The situation reminds me of a child that covers his eyes and says, "You can't see me" and ignores the fact of being seen.

QUOTE
Could you give some examples please of laws which the SC has distorted "to fit some sense of morality"? Are you thinking of Sotomayor's infamous comment that white men can't judge, or actual rulings? Are you referring to rulings which fit a politically correct social reorganization ideology? Do you have specific rulings in mind which best exemplify "fit some sense of morality"?

As social ideologies change legal interpretations often correlate. One example is the SC ruling striking down sodomy laws a few years ago. In fact, comments in the majority opinion mentioned that an attempt to correspond to alterations in social mores about homosexual behavior was among the reasons for the decision. So in this case, one person's distortion is another's progress.

Could you please clarify?


To help clarify I will define the term, “judicial activism,” as I intend it to be used.

judicial activism: The making of new public policies through the decisions of judges. This may take the form of a reversal or modification of a prior court decision, the nullification of a law passed by the legislature, or the overturning of some action of the executive branch. The concept of judicial activism is most associated with the Supreme Court, which from time to time has found new laws when none were there before. However, judges at any level can engage in judicial activism when their judicial positions are used to promote what they consider to be desirable social goals. The main argument against judicial activism is that it usurps the power of the legislature, which is elected by the people.

http://www.semp.us/publications/disaster_dictionary.php?letter=J

Please note that with this definition and my application of it, judicial activism is not restricted to just the U.S. Supreme Court. Here in California we have, not only our own courts, but the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals as well.

A good example for this type of activism is in our California Supreme Court by Chief Justice Rose Bird in 1986. Our death penalty was overturned by the court to the consternation of many. This was found to be unacceptable which led to her removal and Associate Justices Grodin and Reynoso as well.

Rose Bird and the Death Penalty

In 1977, Democratic Governor Jerry Brown appointed Rose Bird as chief justice of California. Bird was the first woman chief justice and, in fact, the first woman ever appointed to the court. Bird had no judicial experience. She had worked as a public defender and had impressed Brown as head of California’s Department of Agriculture. Although he considered her highly qualified, she barely squeaked by her retention election in 1978, gaining just 51.7 percent of the vote.
That same year, voters overwhelmingly passed a death-penalty initiative. In subsequent years, 59 defendants sentenced under this death-penalty law appealed their cases to the Supreme Court. In each case, Bird voted to overturn the sentence. A majority of the court sided with Bird in all but three of these cases. These decisions drew heavy criticism. Many accused the court of thwarting the will of the people. In 1986, six justices of the Supreme Court, including Bird, faced a retention election. Supporters of the death penalty campaigned to remove three justices—Bird, Joseph Grodin (a former professor of labor law), and Cruz Reynoso (the first Latino on the court). All three had been appointed by Brown. Grodin and Reynoso had only voted to uphold death sentences in three cases.

No justice in California had ever lost a retention election, but this campaign caught fire. A crime victims organization enlisted people across the state to ring doorbells. The California District Attorneys Association opposed the justices. Anti-Bird literature flooded voters’ mailboxes. The campaign gained the support of many in the business community who did not like the justices because of what they considered a pro-consumer bias. Republican Governor George Deukmejian, running for re-election, constantly attacked Bird and the two other justices as “liberals” lacking “impartiality and objectivity.” His Democratic opponent, Tom Bradley, refused to take sides. Bird aired a series of commercials, but refrained from getting involved in a discussion about the death penalty. Her commercials focused on the importance of an independent judiciary. She stated: “Judges with a backbone are a California tradition worth keeping.” Although the three justices had support within the legal community, anti-Bird forces vastly outspent their supporters. All three justices lost, and the newly re-elected Governor Deukmejian appointed three justices in their place.


http://cache.zoominfo.com/CachedPage/?archive_id=0&page_id=1019049426&page_url=%2f%2fcrf-usa.crf-usa.org%2fbria%2fbria14_2.html&page_last_updated=11%2f29%2f2008+8%3a19%3a02+AM&firstName=Joseph&lastName=Grodin

Here the citizens of the State of California voted overwhelmingly to institute the death penalty only to be thwarted by the State Supreme Court. Even after the death penalty was overturned, it was reinstated overwhelmingly. Regardless of your position on the death penalty issue one would have at least begin to see that the will of the people was not carried out.

Trend of public opinion

Between 1956 and 1971 proportions ranging between 49% and 58% of state residents favored the death penalty for capital crimes. However, beginning in the 1970.s those in favor increased to more than seven in ten Californians. In the 1980.s support for the death penalty grew even more and peaked in 1985 and 1986, when 83% of Californians favored it.

A 1997 Field Poll found support moderating somewhat to 74%, and in 2000 it declined further to 63%, its lowest level in thirty years. However, voter sentiment for capital punishment increased again in 2002 to 72%, and support in the current survey now stands at 68%.


http://www.field.com/fieldpollonline/subscribers/RLS2112.pdf

Now we come to Sotomayor, just one person in a large system. The following is part of a speech from Rep. Mike Crapo (R-ID) made on the house floor August 8, 2009.

On July 27, 2008, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in District of Columbia v. Heller that the second amendment to the Constitution protects an individual's right to keep and bear arms unconnected with service in a militia, and to use those arms for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

This ruling affirmed what common sense has told us all for a long time: that the second amendment was intended to ensure access to all law-abiding citizens for self-defense and recreation. Unfortunately, despite this ruling in Heller, Judge Sotomayor ruled in the Maloney case that the second amendment does not apply to the States.

Even the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, which has jurisdiction over my home State of Idaho and is often considered one of the most liberal courts in the land, has ruled the opposite way in a similar case, making it clear that second amendment rights are binding on the States.

In Nordyke v. King, the Ninth Circuit held that the right to bear arms is ``deeply rooted in this Nation's history and tradition.'' Additionally, the court found that the ``crucial role this deeply rooted right has played in our birth and history compels us to recognize that it is indeed [a] fundamental [right].''

Furthermore, and again even after the Supreme Court's ruling in Heller, Judge Sotomayor held that the second amendment does not protect a fundamental right.


http://www.c-spanarchives.org/congress/?q=node/77531&id=9028019

There are other examples available but I think you get the idea. One of the books that I have read deals with legal logic. (Logic for Lawyers: A Guide to Clear Legal Thinking by Hon. Ruggero J. Aldisert) In this book the author shows how legal cases are used to support a particular outcome. This is where the technical glitches are interpreted to either modify or get a case dismissed altogether. It is this interpretation that is used to interject personal ideas into law. This is the essence of judicial activism.

As society evolves it is natural to expect things to change. And the law along with it. The problem as I see it is when the citizens vote a particular way and the courts overturn a law that was approved. In the case of California’s death penalty it has been fairly consistently voted in favor of. Even our Proposition 8 about gay marriage was accepted by the majority of Californians. What many do not realize is that gay partnerships have the same legal rights as married couples. The battle is about a word. In which case, the courts are dragged into the melee about rights that did not exist before but was decided by a vote of the citizens. So long as the legal rights are the same on both sides, tradition should be maintained. No harm, no foul.

In your example of the sodomy laws’ being struck down is a little bit different than judicial activism. There was a law that was reviewed, not generated where one did not exist before. Here, I would agree with the decision. It is one more step for getting government out of an issue that it does not belong in. The government has no business being in any one’s bedroom, one way or another. But, you say, what is the difference between a sodomy law and the death penalty? It is one of inclusion in a public arena and common sense. The death penalty has a serious conclusion whereas the sodomy law does not.

What is the difference between a civil service exam and the Second Amendment? Both have public impact. One deals with the quality and ability of people to do a job and the other, a fundamental right as outlined in the Constitution. The courts are there for interpretation of law. But in the case of the civil service exam, common sense was not used. How can there be discrimination in an exam that is applied equally to everyone? Just because you don’t like the results, a claim of discrimination is made. But who is has to live with the results? The public.

The exam was given to determine who is qualified to be promoted. It contained specific questions about fire fighting. Answers to such an exam can determine if someone lives or dies. What does race have to do with such an exam? Either you know the information or you don’t. Either you know how to fight a fire or you don’t. To negate an exam because you don’t like the outcome is ridiculous. To negate an exam because you don’t like the racial make-up of the scores of those who took it is insulting. Do we really need to lower the bar in the name of diversity? Do we really need to lower the bar and receive sub-par services because someone does not know what they are doing? If my house is on fire I expect the firefighters to know what they are doing. I could care less of the color of their skin or sex for that matter. The only requirements are that they can do the job safely with minimal loss of property and no loss of life.

Posted by: stevenpd 18-Aug-2009, 01:41 PM
QUOTE
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to resist any government health care program at all. Did you consider Medicaid/Care intrusion? If so, an acceptable one? Should the government refrain from assisting people who can't afford medical care or medication? If medical bills are the leading cause of bankruptcy, should the attitude simply be tough luck Charlie? Healthcare is a leading cause of debt, individual and by extension national. Do you just not want to pay for the health care of others who can't afford their own? Single people pay through property taxes for schools when they don't personally have children. Taxes cover Medicaid/care, programs for the poor, school lunch programs etc. Is health care a right or privilege? Driving is considered a privilege though your taxes pay for road upkeep for all as well as public transportation for all. If government health care participation is optional, and you're able to keep a plan you have if you desire, where's the intrusion?


A short answer, yes, I resist any type of government health care program. Simply because they have no business being in it.

To expand:

Two programs, Medicare and Medicaid, were started in 1965 as part of President Johnson’s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_society program. Over the years the programs changed in operation and in scope into what we have today. Medicaid and Medicare are two parallel health programs. Medicaid is an entitlement program whereas Medicare is solely a federal program funded through employment taxes (FICA). Both are administered by the Social Security Administration.

Medicare is in trouble.

A MESSAGE TO THE PUBLIC:

Each year the Trustees of the Social Security and Medicare trust funds report on the current and projected financial status of the two programs. This message summarizes our 2009 Annual Reports.

The financial condition of the Social Security and Medicare programs remains challenging. Projected long run program costs are not sustainable under current program parameters. Social Security's annual surpluses of tax income over expenditures are expected to fall sharply this year and to stay about constant in 2010 because of the economic recession, and to rise only briefly before declining and turning to cash flow deficits beginning in 2016 that grow as the baby boom generation retires. The deficits will be made up by redeeming trust fund assets until reserves are exhausted in 2037, at which point tax income would be sufficient to pay about three fourths of scheduled benefits through 2083. Medicare's financial status is much worse. As was true in 2008, Medicare's Hospital Insurance (HI) Trust Fund is expected to pay out more in hospital benefits and other expenditures this year than it receives in taxes and other dedicated revenues. The difference will be made up by redeeming trust fund assets. Growing annual deficits are projected to exhaust HI reserves in 2017, after which the percentage of scheduled benefits payable from tax income would decline from 81 percent in 2017 to about 50 percent in 2035 and 30 percent in 2080. In addition, the Medicare Supplementary Medical Insurance (SMI) Trust Fund that pays for physician services and the prescription drug benefit will continue to require general revenue financing and charges on beneficiaries that grow substantially faster than the economy and beneficiary incomes over time.

The drawdown of Social Security and HI Trust Fund reserves and the general revenue transfers into SMI will result in mounting pressure on the Federal budget. In fact, pressure is already evident. For the third consecutive year, a "Medicare funding warning" is being triggered, signaling that non-dedicated sources of revenues—primarily general revenues—will soon account for more than 45 percent of Medicare's outlays. A Presidential proposal will be needed in response to the latest warning.
The financial challenges facing Social Security and especially Medicare need to be addressed soon. If action is taken sooner rather than later, more options will be available, with more time to phase in changes and for those affected to plan for changes.


http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/TRSUM/index.html

Can we blame the current administration for this? I don’t think so. But I can oppose more of the same. It would be next to impossible to abolish these two programs outright. It would expose too many to needless suffering. Everyone’s planning has been to include Medicaid/Medicare in their retirement plans.

One solution would be to allow more freedom to plan for retirement and by extension, health care outside of government control not more of it. Slowly over time, as the population grows, wean the public off of government assistance. This is where I think people have the biggest disagreement and it all depends on one’s outlook on life. I am an eternal optimist and believe in individualism. I can take care of myself and my family. And on occasion I do help those less fortunate or unable to help themselves. But I make the decision, not the government.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for life.

Posted by: stevenpd 18-Aug-2009, 03:10 PM
QUOTE
Now -- that calls for some shake-up reform in its own right. There need to be subsidized programs to keep making world-class doctors out of any kids that have the brains and the dedication, and it should be a priority; there needs to be serious malpractice tort reform and a cap on settlements; and there needs to be much stiffer regulation of the entire insurance industry. Everybody's assumptions about what's normal have to change -- what doctors expect to make yearly would be substantially lower, but so would their education and malpractice costs, hopefully an approximately fair offset if it were regulated intelligently; and what insurance companies expect as reasonable profit would be radically changed. When medicine and the peripheral industries of malpractice law and insurance are ALL essentially for profit, there's no way to assure continuity of the best, world-class care that we know we are capable of. If you can think of another way to downramp all these excesses, which have long since spiralled out of control, other than government regulation, I would be all for hearing about it.


Let’s take each, one at a time.

There need to be subsidized programs to keep making world-class doctors out of any kids that have the brains and the dedication, and it should be a priority;

Why subsidized? It is quite apparent that future doctors do whatever is necessary to become one. The problem is that health care has become so complex when it comes to health care delivery as to keep some from even thinking about becoming a doctor. Simplify it. Cut the red tape. Make it easier for the doctors to do their job. A definite priority as I have been seeing reports that there will not be enough doctors to go around.

There needs to be serious malpractice tort reform and a cap on settlements;

This point alone would take care of much of what is wrong. Generally, I would like to see a loser-pays-all type of system along with a simple formula for damages. Such a formula could be up to twice actual damages for punitive damages. These outrageous awards have made everyone so paranoid about liability that appropriate decisions can not or will not be made.

and there needs to be much stiffer regulation of the entire insurance industry.

In what way? And why? Could it be that they are responding to an outside influence, i.e. government regulation? Could it be that current regulations prevent new therapies from being readily accepted? Could tort reform relieve some of the pressure too?

Everybody's assumptions about what's normal have to change -- what doctors expect to make yearly would be substantially lower, but so would their education and malpractice costs, hopefully an approximately fair offset if it were regulated intelligently;

I do not believe the people get into the medical profession to become rich. My experience is that that get into it to help people. Do you believe that they put themselves through 8 to 12 years of medical training on the hope that they can become rich? What is there to intelligently regulate? And by whom?

and what insurance companies expect as reasonable profit would be radically changed.

And who gets to determine what a reasonable profit is? The government? What are the criteria for the definition of “reasonable profit?”

When medicine and the peripheral industries of malpractice law and insurance are ALL essentially for profit, there's no way to assure continuity of the best, world-class care that we know we are capable of.

No way to assure continuity of the best, world-class care that we know we are capable of? Do we not have the best care in the world now? Isn’t the United States one of the leading creators of cutting edge medicine already? If you are referring to service delivery, I do think there is room for improvement. Our current system was created by profits and what is wrong with that?

If you take the incentive of profit out of the business model what do you think would happen? You have previously stated, “Everybody's assumptions about what's normal have to change -- what doctors expect to make yearly would be substantially lower.” And this is going to motivate who? Health care quality/quantity will increase in what way?

If you can think of another way to downramp all these excesses, which have long since spiralled out of control, other than government regulation, I would be all for hearing about it.

What excesses? Malpractice insurance will be reduced through tort reform. Our quality of care is currently very high, what is there to change? Education costs are more reflective of required education for current technologies. We have advanced more in medicine in the last 20 years more than any earlier time. Where would you like to cut educational requirements? Or do you expect the medical faculty to take a pay cut? Or both? Last I was at school, they were considered non-profit.

I contend that the profit motive is a very strong one and can motivate people to do extraordinary things better than any regulation can. But they need the opportunity to take the chances and sink or swim by those decisions. Further, the current state of affairs is more the result of governmental intervention than not.

One aspect that has not been looked at is the illegal immigration question. This plays a large role in all of this as well. What impact do you think this has on the health care equation?

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