Celtic Radio Community [Powered by Invision Power Board]

Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format

Celtic Radio Community > Philosophy & Science > What If We Are Wrong?

Posted by: connor1985 20-Mar-2006, 09:57 PM

i hope this will cause some debating but i also hope no one is offended by this.

has anyone thought what if we are wrong and christians were wrong about everything. what if we are following the wrong god? i'm not saying i serve the devil or anything because i don't at this point and time i really serve nothing and no one. my problem is i question a lot of stuff and when it isn't answered i find the answers any way i can and that usually doesn't sit to will with the christian groups i know. because of this i have broken away from all church activities and services until some of these questions are answered. (no i'm sorry i choose not to list the questions i prefer to find them on my own) but in doing this it has opened my eyes to many things and i've began to read about different religions and stuff they don't and some make more since then others. personally i think we should take some information from groups and use it in our lives it would make the world a much nicer place to live in. one group i that really interests me is buddist. i'm not really going to talk about but i do suggest reading a little about them its something quite different. however i do believe in you get what you deserve (KARMA!) just a thought and i'd like to hear from others and get ideas and thoughts.

Posted by: marti64 22-Mar-2006, 04:05 PM

Connor: You raise some interesting points. I have been questioning for years, and I realize that there is definitely SOMETHING that is in control(somewhat) of our lives here on earth, whatever it may be, or whatever we call it. I was brought up in a Protestant church, and now go periodically to a somewhat charasmatic church in my neighborhood, a very small congregation, but a very friendly one. I have always been facinated, too, by the beliefs and organization of the Shakers(Quakers) especially here in New England. It was such a simple life, and everyone knew where they stand. I feel that if we all got down to the basics of our religion, and began to really understand what was actually written in the "stories of the bible" them we cna better understand ourselves!!!

Please comment some more on this!!! It always helps me to get my feelings down in writing, rather than stewing about them!!

Marti

Posted by: Elspeth 22-Mar-2006, 04:27 PM

I can't quite go with you get what you deserve. Too many good people suffer and too many not very nice people are living quite well.

Posted by: connor1985 22-Mar-2006, 06:58 PM

But remember it doesn't say where or when you get what you deserve... i truly believe that at some point be it here or the next life (whatever that may or may not be) you get what's coming to you. you can't live your life doing evil things forever and never expect to have something bad happen to you. the same goes the other way around you can live your life doing all sorts of good things that doesn't mean life isn't going to be hard and bad things wont happen but if you are known as a good person good things can and will happen sometime. we all have to remember time is a factor in everything be it for good or bad and none of us can choose that time we want for anything that's why i think so many people do such evil things thinking that they have all the time in the world to make up for it or hide from it but we never do know.

i guess the main reason i asked this question is because i myself am lost at the moment. i've been going to a methodist church for ten years and i know it inside and out but now that i'm older i question things and when i am punished because of those questions then that's when i start to push away. i guess i am drifting right now because i know some of the answers but not all of them and i seek to find. a big problem i thought of recently is that the current churches whatever you go to came from one original group and was just split by years and years due to many factors. i know it says the original text was copied but there are so many different types of bibles out there how can we be sure they are still right? if there is indeed only one god then we made IT out to be many even though we come from the same group. i'm not sure on all the history so i don't really want to guess but its a scary thought that somewhere down the line maybe someone changed something to their liking and we all worship a false god figure and everything we believe is a lie. like i said a scary thought but most people will never believe that and are so hooked on what is said in church by the leaders (whoever they may be for you) that nothing else matters then what they say is right and wrong. who knows maybe the buddist are right and we keep coming back but how can that be when the population keeps growing and we still have many animals even though some have disappeared. maybe the jews are right if they are the chosen people then how can anyone else be right? i mean the list goes on and on with each and every religion out there and i just can't help but wonder who is right or maybe they all are a little right and it really doesn't matter as long as you believe in something.

i don't know and it's because of these questions that i would like to hear more from you people and i would like people to be honest we are all friends here and out beliefs shouldn't change that. please if you to are having questions post them here maybe together we can all figure this out.

Peace be with you,
~Connor~

Posted by: marti64 22-Mar-2006, 08:56 PM

Connor: Questioning is part of the game of life!!! DO NOT let anyone tell you that your beliefs are WRONG!!! "Church Doctrine" is good to a point, but I think that everyone is going to have a different interpretation of it. I went through a period of questioning when I was about your age. Before that, I was very active in my church. Soon, I felt that my "deeds" were not getting me anywhere, or any recognition. I began to question, andwonder why I ws doing all the things that people told me that I should.
Nowadays, I like to think that I am a SPIRITUAL PERSON rather than a RELIGIOUS PERSON. I know that I will never have all of the answers, and that life goes on.......whatever you believe.

Marti

Posted by: Nightchild 23-Mar-2006, 05:41 AM

QUOTE

Nowadays, I like to think that I am a SPIRITUAL PERSON rather than a RELIGIOUS PERSON. I know that I will never have all of the answers, and that life goes on.......whatever you believe.

That's great. I think a common problem is, that people keep mixing up religion and spirituality.

Connor, I think it's good to wonder and to ask questions. That's the only way to learn things. And I hope I can add some new points to the discussion. I don't want to answer your questions and I don't really have quastions that shall be answered at the moment. But I'll try to explain my point of view.

At first let me say, my belief isn't in one special god. If I had to chose for one it probably would be a goddess anyway. As long as I don't have to choose I prefer to believe in some higher power, some kind of godlike energy. Take it as Energy, take it as one person, take it as several gods and goddesses, whatever you feel like.

Talking about several religions I guess they all are as right as wrong. Religion isn't god given. It develops. There were other "religions" (better call it beliefs) before Jews showed on earth. There were Jews before Christians of any kind showed. Christian belief devided in several different. Someone once told me, there were many different types of jewish-christian belief at first but only one of it survived. Religions, beliefs take in things out of other beliefs, make it their own (as for christmas being celebrated around midwinter, easter around ostara, all hallows at the same time as samhain...)
As for me: Religion is made by people, not by gods. And the whole discussion which religion is "the right one" and which are wrong is kinda unimportant, for there is not such a thing like a false religion. They all are as right as wrong.
I think the important thing about a belief is not whether it's right or wrong, but if it does respect other beliefs as equal and good, at least in some form.

Hope that might give something to think about to the one or the other.

Posted by: connor1985 23-Mar-2006, 08:22 PM

Nightchild i liked that it made a lot of sense and it also still makes me think. personally i believe that there has to be something out there but as for what i'm not to sure. science does little to prove where we came from and the ideas are flawed. the question i raise is if we all came from monkeys or gorillas then when evolution moved us to human there should be no more monkeys of gorillas they would have died out just like all our prehistoric humans did.

now i'll give you an example of a real good question put to the test. in high school i took a space science just so i have a extra class and during the year we talked about how the universe was made. its simple really there are four basic things you must have in order for the universe to exist. space, time, energy, and matter. now my teacher said that before the "big bang" all four of those things were missing and then they appeared. i asked him how can that be and it doesn't make any sense at all. you can't get space from nothing and if you have no space you can have no matter because matter takes up space. so if you have no space or matter how do you get energy which requires both of those and without time then none of this can happen. no time it doesn't matter if you have space or not because nothing would happen but because you already had no space you can't have time.

i went on and on for a while and in the end i was told pretty much to shut up and if i spoke like that again he would fail me for the rest of the year. not cool because all that did was prove to me he really had no clue what he was teaching that and it proves there has to be some sort of higher power out there to do all this. again the questions can be asked but if there really is something out there then i think it is wise of us to seek and figure it out. to me questions all have answers it just all depends on if we can understand those answers or if it is beyond us.

gee all this talking and thinking makes me want to share a drink with all you so here's one on me.

Posted by: Nightchild 24-Mar-2006, 05:14 AM

Well, I think there are just a few things we have to believe in. For example we have to believe, that the world we live in is a real world and not some kind of virtuel world like in Matrix. Or that we are some kind of experiment some higher life form is running.
But when we believe that this world IS real and we are NO experiment, why then not just believe that the big bang existed?
Another thing we (or at least some of us) believe in is that there is a god (or some kind of god) and that he / she created the world. (By the way, I don't remember the bible saying, that god created the universe, did it? Well, maybe I'm wrong, I just can't remeber those things for such a long time, but I only remember it saying he created the world... Yet maybe that's only a translation error...)
See, what I mean? Science is just another form of belief!

About your big bang questions. I once heard a theory that after the big bang the universe is expanding, but not endlessly. Someday everything will start moving back to its origin, back to one point in the universe and crash. Then, they say, we'll have another big bang. So why not believe, that there was another universe before the one we live in?
Still that doesn't explain where everything came from in the first place. But hey, it's hard to find any prove of what was before the big bang, isn't it?

Then again (there's a topic about mixed beliefs in the grove, and I think, this goes close to mixed beliefs) why not believe, that there was a big bang and let the facts we can't explain by science be explained by some higher power that made it all happen?

As for the teacher: Not such a good one, in my opinion. A teacher should have the inner strength to admit things he or she doesn't know about...

Posted by: Swanny 24-Mar-2006, 07:23 AM

QUOTE

By the way, I don't remember the bible saying, that god created the universe, did it?

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

Posted by: CelticCoalition 24-Mar-2006, 12:33 PM

Personally, I think everyone on earth is wrong when it comes to religion and god.

However, I don't think it really matters. IMHO all beliefs and religions are just an attempt at explaining the unexplainable, mainly through a strong desire humans have of explaining that which they don't understand. I also feel like it is a way to bring meaning into peoples' lives and feel less alone in the universe.

I heard a comedian once call God an imaginary friend for adults.

As to why I don't think it matters...I suppose that just a matter of faith for me. I believe that good things happen to those who are good, bad things happen to those who are bad, and sometimes bad or good things just happen. I don't really think there is a divine influence that really cares all that much about us at the end of the day and I strongly believe that we are in control of our own destiny. We may be shown the door, or put in a certain situation, but it is up to us to decide what to do about it.

I just don't think religion matters much...and I think peope put far too much import on whether or not their beliefs or anyone elses is Right or Wrong. Besides, everyone's beliefs are based on the same currency: faith. To say that one person's faith is more valid than another's based on the belief structure they put their faith in...I think that's just wrong.

Posted by: Swanny 24-Mar-2006, 11:24 PM

QUOTE

has anyone thought what if we are wrong and christians were wrong about everything. what if we are following the wrong god?

If you are wrong, then you won't go to heaven and all of those people that the "good Christians" (or "good Muslims", &c) have been harassing for being 'bad' and 'sinful' won't go to hell. Instead our spirit will be assimilated into the whole, or reincarnated in a new form or new body, or return to the center of everything or become a part of the Great Mystery or your spirit will be judged upon your own merits rather than those of the book you chose to follow.

Posted by: John Clements 25-Mar-2006, 11:16 AM

I think the last time we had a meaningful, spiritual connection. Was when our so called, savage ancestors, worshiped Mother Nature, which, in my opinion is the only true god!

In fact, I believe religion in general, fundamentally divides humanity. I mean� Isn't life difficult enough, without complicating it, more than it already is!

Posted by: connor1985 25-Mar-2006, 12:10 PM

QUOTE (John Clements @ 25-Mar-2006, 12:16 PM)

i agree and believe that when we as people worshiped nature things seemed to work a little better. however the church started called that group pagans and now half the time if you hear that word people think DEVIL!!! which is completely wrong the devil has nothing at all to do with that group. sure some of their things are a little weird but then again each religion has something kind of messed up or goofy in it. here's a thought though. when "god" created man/woman in the garden we were at peace with nature and everything around us it was only after eating from the tree of knowledge that we fell from grace (if that's what you believe) and began to fight against nature. since then i think we have been losing that battle. you can never defeat nature it will never go away (unless we blow up the world in which case it really doesn't matter) so really maybe we all started out as pagans but like everything else start to separate and form our own little things. with all the garbage happening around the world between wars and the elements beating on us maybe it's a sign that we need to go back and really think about what we are doing and who we worship. it we respected nature i don't think we would have some of the problems we are facing today like global warming. we wouldn't have butchered the forest and pumped so much crap into the planet because we would've cared if we hurt the earth. just a thought but a good one to ponder about.

Posted by: WizardofOwls 26-Mar-2006, 05:04 AM

If we are wrong, then I, as a Christian, have lived a life that I can be proud of. I have done my best to be a person that helps others, and have tried to do good to those around me. By those standards, if we are wrong then I think I should do well in whatever is yet to come.

For me, though, the question should not be what if we are wrong, but what if we are RIGHT!

Eternity is a LONG time!

Posted by: Nightchild 26-Mar-2006, 05:57 AM

So what, Wizard? What if you are right? Isn't that, what the discussion is always about? Who's right and what happens to those who believe in the false things in one false or many (and therefor false as well) gods?
I think it's must more interesting, to think about what happens when you are wrong, for if you're right, it's all fine and well with you. The only thing left to do is convince others that their belief is false and yours is the right one. Asking yourself if you might be wrong opens the eye to what is beyond the things you take for granted.
It might lead to the knowledge, that you follow the false religion, but it might also lead to the knowledge that whatever god or goddess you worship doesn't matter in the end but what matters is how you treat yourself and those around you, including the 'lifeless' nature, that's not lifeless at all. Like Swanny said. Wise words, Swanny

It's not about saying 'Hey, you're wrong, find something else to believe in!' It's just about not closing in and not seeing anything outside the selfmade border.

As for the last meaningful spiritual connection... I don't think it was all those years ago. The 'date' depends on the society. Look at some african cultures, look at maori and aborigines. I strongly believe, they still have such a meaningful connection.
I pretty much also believe, that there are people following christian believes that have a meaningful connection to whatever on a spiritual basis. And as for me, my last meaningful connection was yesterday. (Not taking into account, that the connection is always there, but most people chose to ignore it.)

As for destroying the world around us: I think we wouldn't have to change our religion for being better to the world and the nature. It would be enough if we just realized that we are connected to nature, that we are part of it and that probability is much higher for nature to survive without us then for us to survive without nature.
Good luck, mankind *g*

Posted by: CelticCoalition 26-Mar-2006, 09:02 PM

^Here here!

Posted by: connor1985 27-Mar-2006, 09:31 PM

something that just came to mind...

if we were to follow the christian belief (no i'm not bashing or nothing just explaining) then people who live their life in a good manner no matter what they might do (i'll just say buddist because you never hear anything bad about them) they will burn in hell forever just because they didn't accept christ into themselves. to me if there is a just god he wouldn't allow that to happen just because they follow something different and live their lives in a "holy" manner that shouldn't hold them out of whatever awaits in the end. we should be judged by what we have done with our lives not what we believe. now don't get me wrong i kind of like that whole forgiveness thing but it really

me off that a person could do something outrageous (example tim mcvay) and right before they die they find forgiveness and really mean it they would be allowed into "heaven" with saints. just think mass murders with saints.

who knows who or what is right but i think that our actions speak louder then our words will ever reach. and a thing that really bothers me is that in america we are to have a right to and religion but because there is a large group of christians it seems they decide what can and can not be worshiped. for example where i live there are two christian stores but anytime a group comes in and offers something different (think something like spencers) they form a coalition and try to get it shut down. why is it ok for that to happen but not for all those other groups to try and shut down some of the churches around town? i don't know the count for sure but i think our small town has over 12 different churches!!!

(that and we have almost as many bars as churches

) if it is our god given right to worship whoever we want then there should be a law that protects that. it's not until something extreme happens that anyone really worries about other religions (like 9/11) but when it does there is an outcry to ban it from america which is completely wrong!

like i said who knows but my mind keeps skipping around but here's a little more for everyone to think about. hope to hear from ya'll soon.

until then may peace be with you

Posted by: Antwn 28-Mar-2006, 06:11 PM

QUOTE (WizardofOwls @ 26-Mar-2006, 06:04 AM)

A wonderful sentiment Wizard. Yes you should do well even if there's no judgement at all

because you're at peace with yourself and your choices.

Actually eternity may have nothing to do with time, it can even be seen as a moment which is always present - without containing linear past, present and future which are definitions of time. So eternity may not be any time at all.

Posted by: Antwn 28-Mar-2006, 06:21 PM

If Truth by definition is self evident by virtue of its truth, then shouldn't it be non-debatable? Doesn't it follow then to question the veracity of that which is debatable?

Posted by: Siobhan Blues 29-Mar-2006, 10:32 AM

QUOTE (connor1985 @ 22-Mar-2006, 07:58 PM)

i guess i am drifting right now because i know some of the answers but not all of them and i seek to find. a big problem i thought of recently is that the current churches whatever you go to came from one original group and was just split by years and years due to many factors. i know it says the original text was copied but there are so many different types of bibles out there how can we be sure they are still right? if there is indeed only one god then we made IT out to be many even though we come from the same group....

Oh honey, what a complex thing you're delving into...

I've been there too. Read up on all the major religions, wondered if Christianity really is the only way or if somebody else has a clue too... the search for answers was unnerving but the most worthwhile journey I have ever undertaken.

Let me tell you briefly what I discovered: beyond all religions, all denominations, all concepts and theories there is this truth:
All around us is a marvelous, rich world. We are amazing, complex creations ourselves - each unique and vital and precious. We were created - we are loved by our Creator. We seek interaction with our Creator and He is waiting for nothing more than for us to take that first step! And sure the Bible has been around a long time, but if you search its pages it will stir in YOUR heart a personal realization that its the key to everything. It's radical, its comprehensive, its dramatic and its life-changing. And it's got the answer to every single question.

All religions and theories are attempts to make some sense of this world. All religions & religious texts and denominations are reactions to the initial way mankind perceived the world. Most religions today will teach you that if there is a higher power, it is unreachable or unattainable or something you can reach only by countless rebirths until you are good enough or follow the rules perfectly. Perfection isn't within our means and as a result we feel guilt, insecurity, lost...

There is one core truth way down deep below all these concepts of men: God the creator. You'll find him at the heart of many beliefs (except those who arrogantly dismiss His existence because they can't fully comprehend Him). But few belief systems offer a direct access to Him like Christianity does. The historical person of Jesus Christ is the single one who taught grace - believe in me, he said, and you'll find peace. Look at me, he said, and you're looking at what God is like. I am here to show you what God is like, what He wants, and how much He loves you. Choose to believe I am who I say I am, and God himself will sweep you off your feet.

We all have the choice to believe or not. By nature I am doubtful and insecure, but the more I learned about Jesus the more intrigued I became. A friend of mine once said Jesus is too good to be true and he rejected Jesus because of that... but I chose to accept what appeared too good to be true, and I've been propelled into a personal relationship with the Creator! Jesus really was God on earth; he really did come here, live, teach, suffer murder - AND return from the dead. Because of what Jesus did, we can know God face to face - IF WE CHOOSE TO BELIEVE. Jesus's teachings are in the New Testament part of the Bible.

I too have felt constricted by "the church", and that's because the church wants us to follow its rules. But if you seek Christ, seek Jesus, seek the Creator thru the pages of the Bible and the evidence of Him in natural world around us! That's where the joy is!

Posted by: Raven 29-Mar-2006, 02:17 PM

QUOTE (connor1985 @ 22-Mar-2006, 07:58 PM)

i know it says the original text was copied but there are so many different types of bibles out there how can we be sure they are still right?

hey Conner

Just a point of clarification.

Even though the various translations of the Bible are refered to as versions, they are actually translations and come from 2 bodies of texts in the original languages (speaking of New Testament) that vary to insignificant degrees. (i.e. they say the same thing and do not disagree) The Old Testament translated come from the same body of text.

That said, If I am wrong about God and me being a Christian.... I would not do anything different. Eternity might not exist as I think it will be but I would not have lived my life any differently. It is no burden.

Interesting arguement for Truth Antwn. I would suggest that just because something is true does not mean that everyone will agree that it is true for the following reasons.

A. they don't have enough information to begin with - resulting in debate

2. they don't really care about the truth if it is different from what they want it to be - and they like to argue on top of that - again a debate of the truth.

C. They don't believe that there is such a thing as truth apart from the individuals perception of it. No Absolutes. If I have a battleship dropped on me it will not necesarily crush me sort of thing. One more arguement.

4. they start with a predetermined opinion and are not open to new information - actually a variation of some of the previous, yet different.

Peace

MIkel

Posted by: Antwn 29-Mar-2006, 07:40 PM

QUOTE (Raven @ 29-Mar-2006, 03:17 PM)

Interesting arguement for Truth Antwn. I would suggest that just because something is true does not mean that everyone will agree that it is true for the following reasons.

Actually Raven I don't think Truth is conceptual at all.

Posted by: connor1985 29-Mar-2006, 09:29 PM

while something may hold true for that doesn't mean it holds true for everyone. some truths could be called absolute but i think for the most part it all depends on our own point of view of life and the way we view the world. i'm not really going to talk about that to much it makes my head hurt thinking of things that may or may not be true to everyone.

however i would like to ask this question. what about periods where the church as a group killed thousands of innocent people because the pope told them to? can we be held responsible if you follow your religious leader and are only doing what he says god has told him to do? makes you wonder because if so then many of our ancestors who "took up the cross" and partook of the crusades are most likely in hell. again like i said the pope declared that the holy land needed to be claimed for god and that killing muslims (infidel) was not murder and that by doing so you could earn your right into heaven. sorry but isn't that against everything the bible tells us? we really can't earn our way into heaven that's way jesus has to come down and do all he did other wise we would still be killing sheep and lambs to earn forgiveness. in every religion you have those who will follow it blindly even if they really knew it was wrong they can't go against the figurehead of the time and evil things can come from it.

now its part of our history that we fought the crusades for many many years but again the pope told us to and we only did what we were told. however now that we have other religions killing us its all of a sudden wrong and they should be punished. what's the difference?

there is really no difference but because it's not us and our god didn't tell us to do it's wrong for these other groups to kill.

just giving everyone a little more stuff to think about i'm sure i'm not really well liked since i started this but i felt i had to. again i ask you don't become offended for i am only one person asking the question that weighs on his heart. i hope up all will continue to post here i enjoy hearing other peoples thoughts (even if i don't like we are all entitled to what we think) and the debates are what really get me going. anyway please feel free to post your thoughts and talk about what you really think.

peace be with you

Posted by: Nightchild 30-Mar-2006, 04:28 AM

QUOTE

Let me tell you briefly what I discovered: beyond all religions, all denominations, all concepts and theories there is this truth:
All around us is a marvelous, rich world. We are amazing, complex creations ourselves - each unique and vital and precious. We were created - we are loved by our Creator. We seek interaction with our Creator and He is waiting for nothing more than for us to take that first step! And sure the Bible has been around a long time, but if you search its pages it will stir in YOUR heart a personal realization that its the key to everything. It's radical, its comprehensive, its dramatic and its life-changing. And it's got the answer to every single question.

That's a truth I mostly could follow. I'd definitely go with the part of the rich world and the fact that there's someone (like a creator) that loves us. Yet when holding this as for a truth beyond religions you should take into account that this also might be a She. Not to offend, just to push thoughts.

QUOTE

now its part of our history that we fought the crusades for many many years but again the pope told us to and we only did what we were told. however now that we have other religions killing us its all of a sudden wrong and they should be punished. what's the difference? there is really no difference but because it's not us and our god didn't tell us to do it's wrong for these other groups to kill.

Never thought about it that way. But you're right. Completely. I'm amazed.

*thinking*

Posted by: Raven 30-Mar-2006, 09:18 AM

QUOTE (Antwn @ 29-Mar-2006, 08:40 PM)

QUOTE (Raven @ 29-Mar-2006, 03:17 PM)

Interesting arguement for Truth Antwn. I would suggest that just because something is true does not mean that everyone will agree that it is true for the following reasons.

Actually Raven I don't think Truth is conceptual at all.

I'm Sorry Antwn

I did not mean to infer that.

I was only showing that regardless how true something may be people will always debate it.

As far as absolute Truth Conner.....

Humans need oxygen to to maintain corporeal existence true for all humans.

Chocolate makes humans break out in a rash - not true for all humans.

Unless you buy into exestentialism,(i.e. I think therefore I am, existence is only an illusion and only exists as I percieve it) you have to buy into the fact that there are absolute truths. Certain things are absolute and there is no way arround the truth of them whether we like it or not. Dwelling on what is not absolute will not change that fact either.

As far as what other people have done historically because a man told them to do it..... what does that have to do with the Bible. That is religeon not spirituality and not done in the spirit of truth. Many of those people who were killed historically by the church were killed for possesion or knowledge of the Bible. Or for failing to acknowledge a church as the supreme truth on earth, not just Muslims in the crusades. Not really much different than Jim Jones having people drink cool aid. The people that hung Jesus on the cross were church people (the Jewish religeous leaders)

My point is man doing something wrong is just what man does, it is not a reflection on what God wants or what the Bible says.

Hope that didn't give you a headache

MIkel

Posted by: Aaediwen 30-Mar-2006, 05:22 PM

QUOTE (Raven @ 30-Mar-2006, 10:18 AM)

My point is man doing something wrong is just what man does, it is not a reflection on what God wants or what the Bible says.

The problem is, although we like to believe (I include myself) that god would not make such a request. We can prove nothing with certainty on this subject. What is a whole nother topic on faith in itself. Does the evil of the 1100-1600's reflect poorly on God/Goddess? That depends on what you believe. But it does reflect very badly on the church. Perticularly, the Catholic church of that period carries a scar through which the fires of Hell still seethe. I am not qualified to say, but I can only hope that the modern incarnation of that church does not carry the vices of old. From what little I have seen, I will say there is at worst a great deal of promise that my hopes are true.

Now to say we're right or wrong on the subject of spiritualtiy and religon.... If we're wrong, then life continues and we who pass lose nothing and don't care about what happens anyway. Until then, belief in a higher power certainly seems to help an awful lot of people lead better lives. Simple 'nuff.

Posted by: Raven 31-Mar-2006, 03:05 PM

I agree Aedi it reflects badly on the church organization. But the Bible did not tell them to go on the crusades.

The fact remains that people who were killed over the Bible were by and large killed by those who did not want them to follow or pocess Bibles or parts there of.

The ones that killed them were professing to be Christians. So it was mostly a case of the church killing Christians. Check out Foxes book of martyres.

Again to reiterate, it has not been the Bible ordering people to kill others but religeous institutions. That's my point it is.

BTW Aaedi don't you live near Lexington? Arminta and I are going to be there a week from tonight and we would love to meet you if you are close by.

Peace

Mikel

Posted by: Aaediwen 31-Mar-2006, 05:40 PM

I'm in the next town over, about 30 minutes away tops. I'd love to meet up with you while you're in town

PM details?

Posted by: Shadows 31-Mar-2006, 05:57 PM

What the belief in an after life and the " will of the "church" " ( yes those are double qoutes ) gives mankind is a "hope" of something more...something to keep us inline, something to make sure we treat each other right...

Any religion that teaches hate, killing, jihad, crusade, or persicusion in any form is not of the diety or dieties they profess to believe in...

The bible is only one book of the ancients that shows us the ways to live ; it is the unwillingness on mans part to accept the messages provided and make these things secular and selfserving where the troubles begin....

Posted by: greenldydragon 01-Apr-2006, 07:44 PM

Personally, I believe in one creator, but am not exactly sure who (in the various religions) it really is. This is a little hard for me to explain, but I feel that the ultimate creator (whether a God or Goddess or Multiple deities) doesn't mind what it is called. Most major religions (I am assuming here as I have not researched all of them) convey similar principles (like don't commit adultery...) and as long as you live your life by principles you believe are important, the creator is not that concerned in the specifics... Well, he/she is, but say you follow christain principles, but don't go to church yet you still believe in those beliefs...is the creator going to punish someone because they did not go to church and didn't do anything really wrong (barring small incidents that occur in every person's life)? I don't know, this may be really off topic, but that is all I have figured out so far..

Posted by: connor1985 02-Apr-2006, 01:03 PM

Raven besides asking the question of what if those texts were copied wrong i really haven't said the bible told anyone to do anything. i was speaking about the church leaders at the time not the text. just wanted to clear that up a bit.

greenldydragon i must say that was something to really think about. you see i think that may be where i am at i know there has to be a greater power but like you said the question is who or what. with so many different religions around the world its hard to say who is wrong and who is right in the end it all comes down to choice. one of our greatest gifts and curse. don't get me wrong i love being able to choose and do what i want but if you really think about it's because we can choose to be of do evil things that make the world a scary place to live in. now i hope we never lose that right of choice because great things have came from it and i think that shows that whoever created us has limitless forgiveness and no matter what we do we can always find forgiveness in his/her eyes.

Posted by: connor1985 05-Apr-2006, 07:21 PM

just posting to get this back at the top and see if more people will add their thoughts to this. all of a sudden it died and that worries me i would love to debate more with anyone or just hear what others want to say.

Posted by: Nova Scotian 06-Apr-2006, 09:13 PM

QUOTE (connor1985 @ 20-Mar-2006, 10:57 PM)

I look at it this way, I'm a good person and in most faiths, that's all you need in order to be saved. Well in Christianity you are born with an uncurable disease called sin. The only way out is to except Jesus as the sacrifice that you rightfully diserve. If I'm wrong, then I'm OK because I think I'm a good person and I always try to do good and when I think of doing bad, I get convicted. If I'm right, I'm safe as well because I know my sin is forgiven because Jesus died in my place.

Posted by: reddrake79 16-Apr-2006, 05:31 PM

Do any system of beliefs realy give you a choice except for christianity? In every other system (I am familiar with) the way to get to heaven is through the things you do on this earth. i.e. selfless acts, giving to the homeless, finding inner peace, etc. How do these systems assure the individual that he has done enough to get into heaven? Without that assurance how can someone make a choice? No one wants to go to Hell. (unless of course they don't understand what hell is) If you don't want to go to hell and you don't have any assurance that you are going to heaven, how can you make the decision to do something wrong when you may never get the chance to do something good to counteract it? How does a person know if they have done something good enough to counterbalance a bad act? Does giving to the homeless make up for taking someone's life? Biblical Christianity is the only belief that assures the most horrid and debase person that they can still go to heaven even at the end of their utterly corrupt life.

Posted by: Nightchild 17-Apr-2006, 04:12 AM

As I see it, it's not doing something that makes up for a bad act. It's rather regretting the bad thing you've done. This means that other religions that work with some kind of heaven assure that you can go to heaven if you live by some kind of moral.
But then again, regretting is something you do, too...

Just my thoughts

Posted by: Nova Scotian 17-Apr-2006, 08:03 AM

QUOTE (reddrake79 @ 16-Apr-2006, 06:31 PM)

This is all true! I believe is a disease that we can never rid ourselves of by our own works. Only the blood of Christ can rid us of that disease. No matter what you've done or how hurrendous of horriffic it is.

Posted by: Raven 17-Apr-2006, 09:24 AM

QUOTE (connor1985 @ 02-Apr-2006, 02:03 PM)

It's all good Conner, I just know that a lot of people are under the misconception that people act on what the Bible says to slaughter other people. It is a common thing to see someone write that more people have been killed over the Bible, making it look as if it is an argument over something said in the Bible or that the Bible caused them to kill because of it's words.

A short version of how we can have assurance that the Bible has not been copied wrong.

If you look at what experts on writings of antiquity say about the New Testament and the Old Testament (Regardless of whether they are Christian or not) you will find a unanimous agreement among them that the New Testament and the Old Testament are the most reliable/accurate works of antiquity #'s1 & 2 respectively by a huge factor.

More information on this along with extensive documentation can be found in a book by Josh McDowell "Evidence that Demands a Verdict"

I hope that helps

Mikel

Posted by: Aaediwen 18-Apr-2006, 04:44 PM

QUOTE (reddrake79 @ 16-Apr-2006, 06:31 PM)

What you're saying here sounds to me like no Christian would have a valid reason to actually lead a good life since everyone has a cheap way out by laying it all on Jesus. Now this probably isn't what you mean (at least I hope it's not). In either case I don't agree with the viewpoint myself, as I read it. As far as assurance of Heaven from the perspective of other religons, I can't speak for all, but I believe it is based on if you can honestly say to yourself that you've led a true life. The ability to do so would require a true soul. Even if you've no regrets about being a serial killing rapist your entire life, I seriously doubt you'd have an easy time convincing yourself that you've led a good, true life in the end.

The very concept of what one calls Heaven, differs to varying degrees depending on how you believe. This is true between even various Christian denominations. I've heard some Christian descriptions of Heaven that sound absolutely wonderful, while I've heard others that would make Hell sound like quite a welcome place in comparison.

From my own perspective, Can one lead an untrue life and truely have accepted Christ? I'd say not. If you lead an honestly true life, then are you not in line with Christ, no matter what name you may use?

It's possible that my statement may be mis-construed when taken out of context of my beliefs. I can hear someone already posting "But the question is not just following him, but believing he died for your sins, and is the savior" In this I will point to my belief in one polynomial, multi-faceted diety. That one God as several names and faces. With them, he/she presented the same message in various ways to various people all through history. Jesus, and his death to clense the sins of the world, is one of these identities. And accepting that he died for the sins of the world is one name for the deeper message of accepting God. Not everyone believes the same way. I don't believe that makes anyone right or wrong though. If we're truthfully talking about an omnipotent devine being, then who are we to say God or Goddess cannot have a great many identities, to present the same core message to many groups of people in many ways. And who are we to assume that they have to tell us everything?

The Christian phrasing is to walk the path of Jesus, and to follow him. Every religon I've studies has an analogy to that, all talking of the same path. If you're not on that path, you'll know it as you trudge through the muck and the mud, lost for eternity. If you're on that path, it doesn't matter what name you use for the path or for they who lead you. It's all the same destination.

Posted by: Antwn 01-May-2006, 05:33 PM

If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. -- Albert Einstein

Einstein had a good point. Certainly we can rise to a greater vision than that. Problem is people believe that without obedience to outside direction their inner vision is not trustworthy. They've been trained to believe so by religion, for its religion which sets up the trap Einstein refers to - fabricates an inescapable problem, provides a solution only through adopting the specific religion, then presents an eternal consequence of the choice. It makes a mockery of both the divine and the human - the divine becomes tyrannical and the human inept.

Posted by: Siobhan Blues 12-May-2006, 07:35 AM

QUOTE (Aaediwen @ 18-Apr-2006, 05:44 PM)

From my own perspective, Can one lead an untrue life and truely have accepted Christ? I'd say not. If you lead an honestly true life, then are you not in line with Christ, no matter what name you may use?...
The Christian phrasing is to walk the path of Jesus, and to follow him... If you're not on that path, you'll know it as you trudge through the muck and the mud, lost for eternity. ..

From personal experience and from having chosen to follow Christ at the young age of 11, I must say that once I chose Him I've found that He simply won't leave me alone! In choosing a husband, a career, in seeking life direction in making decisions - Christ has a tight grip on my hand, and when I get misdirected or timid He either tugs or pushes me along.

He's done the most unusual things too to get my attention when I tend to stray - stuff I'm not imagining, its just to strange and personal for that. I couldn't come up with this stuff on my own!
All that to say, I think too that if you're not on the path you'll know it. Sure doubt comes, and second-guessing and fears and uncertainty. But HE LEADS when you ask... its the 'seek and you'll find, knock and the door opens' concept. He keeps His promises. If He weren't real, if He weren't The One then I would have slipped into miserable oblivion years ago.

Posted by: connor1985 13-Jun-2006, 11:55 AM

now don't get me wrong i to have accepted christ at a young age but as i grew up i began to questions things and those questions have lead me to making this topic. like i have said i just hate being told i shouldn't ask certian questions just because someone either doesn't have the answer or just doesn't think i should know. i have been told so many times that i shouldn't ask things and have been turned away so that is what has pushed me to doing my own research. i have made many friends in all different religions some i acted in more then others some i wish i never would have found but that is part of life we all do things we aren't proud of. now in my study i have found that some other religions gave some answers i was looking for and others made more. me personally i wish we could all go back to the old days where we were one with nature and quit trying to contain and control everything. not only did life seem a little easier but you didn't hear about all these horrible events happening around the world. who knows maybe no one is right and everything was just a story told to keep the many in line to the few. like i said i just wanted to get other peoples thoughts on this topic so keep posting and keep the debate alive.

Posted by: ShadowDarkFyre 19-Jun-2006, 04:05 PM

People need to go back to the precept of "Your belief is your own business, and respect the beliefs of others." Human nature, more often than not unfortunately, tends to rob people of good hobbit sense from time to time.

Posted by: reddrake79 21-Aug-2006, 10:57 AM

Now here is an interesting idea, "respect". What do we mean by respect? I am judging from the context here that the idea of respect used here means "to leave alone, or to accept it myself." I apologize if this was not the intended idea. But that has never been my understanding of respect. It means we discuss each others ideas without insulting them. If my beliefs tell me that a person needs to me a certain qualification to reach heaven, then I am going to tell them that. It is up to them to believe it or not. Unfortunatly I have had many people tell me I need to "respect" their beliefs even though the don't respect mine the same way they want me to respect theirs. Does this make sense?

Now, back to the original idea. If you examine all the other religions (again the ones I am familiar with) they talk about being good. weather it is a spititual feeling (peace or self-belief) or physically (doing good things) I still have a question? How does a person decide what is good? How do they know? if the answer is, "they feel good about it" that is pretty ambiguous (sp?) How does a person decide what is bad? What if a totally deranged person thinks that by murdering a 6 year old girl he is doing her a favor, by setting her "free". Is that good or bad? He thinks it is good, will he go to his version of heaven for it? The family that the girl was a part of thinks it was bad, does he need to make up for it? Next is it fair if he goes to heaven because he thought he was doing a good thing but the family doesn't because they harbor resentment towards him and die before they get the chance to make it right?

According to my understanding the Bible is the only one that is fair, by applying the same standard to everybody. Romans 3:23 "for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." . Then it applies the same standard to get to heaven for everyone. John 3:16 "For God so loved the World that he gave his one and only son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." emphasis mine. It is the same standard for everyone. God also makes no distinction between different sins: colossions 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

God makes no difference between murder and hatred. We may not like it but I think that is becausae we judge sin by our own standard and not God's.

Posted by: CelticCoalition 21-Aug-2006, 01:33 PM

I disagree that the bible is clear cut and fair.

For instance, the quotes of yours about he who has sinned and whomever believes in God and his sun get to go to heaven are contridictory. Does this mean that if I sin I'm screwed, or does it mean that I can sin, but only so long as I believe in God?

It also doesn't really make it clear if any of the sins are forgivable or not. I'm just going by what you've said mind. The bible might have answers for these questions somewhere in it.

Also, drunkenness? revelings? So if I have a party, I'm going to hell; even if drinking isn't involved? And uncleanness...is this defined in the bible? How clean does one have to be to avoid uncleanness?

Besides disagreeing with the evidence you've presented that the Bible is the only fair description of what it takes to get into heaven, I doubt your research into other religions. Buddhism, for example, sets up a clear set of rules for reaching nirvanah, just as the bible sets up rules for reaching heaven. I have not looked into all the religions of the world, but there is at least one, and I suspect many more, examples of religions OTHER than the bible setting up rules on how to lead a GOOD life.

I also think you are wrong when you say that the idea is respect means ignorance. I think respect means accepting that other people disagree with you and that their opinions are just as valid as your own. I'm not saying you specificially, I'm usuing you in a general way here. So, preaching Christianity to a Buddhist and telling them that they are wrong to believe what they do is not respectful in this instance. Sharing ideas of the two religions would be. I think people tend to say respect other religions by leaving them be because people have a hard time respecting religions in any other way.

And besides...putting your faith in the bible is simply another subjective acceptance of what is Good vs Bad. It is accepting what the bible labels as good and bad. There is nothing to say the bible is any more accuarate in its description of good and bad than anything or anyone elses.

Posted by: Antwn 22-Aug-2006, 02:54 PM

QUOTE (CelticCoalition @ 21-Aug-2006, 02:33 PM)

I also think you are wrong when you say that the idea is respect means ignorance. I think respect means accepting that other people disagree with you and that their opinions are just as valid as your own.

I agree with many of Celtic's points about Christianity. However I don't believe anyone HAS to respect anyone's religion at all. I can have no respect whatsoever for a particular religion but still feel an empathic connection to the believer's search for some sort of meaning or experience of something they would consider divine or transcendent. I can relate to the quest and feel compassion for the individual while disrespecting their conclusions or methodology entirely. If a person tells me they believe the world is secretly controlled by pink elephants that only he can see, I'm likely not to have much respect for that point of view, and believe me I'm just as incredulous about some religions.

I'm talking general observations here, not about anyone specifically, because I hear this alot.....the fact that one disagrees is a statement of belief in the invalidity of the point of view offered isn't it, in other words, falsely based or reasoned to the disagreer's mind, no matter how we're expected to kowtow in the Land of Nice and pretend we're not saying what we're saying? While its not necessary to be rude, civility also doesn't necessitate mendacity or pretense either. Some defend their beliefs with a vehemence which clearly demonstrates they don't really believe in equal validity for the other's opinion at all. Perhaps what people consider disrespect is just disagreement plus passion. Yet often the demand from others to respect their point of view becomes a coercive manipulative ploy, a demand that you fulfill their need for agreement even if you're expected to compromise your integrity and the honesty of your true point of view to accommodate such an insecurity.

I realize its a popular politically correct point of view, but I don't think anyone has the right to demand anyone's respect for their beliefs, nor will they truly get it if they do. Acquiescence is not necessarily respect nor is equivocation. Common courtesy doesn't necessitate disingenuous stances either. Personally I'd prefer the honesty and integrity of a person's point of view courteously presented to their respect for mine and and I don't think respect for me necessitates respect for my beliefs.

Posted by: CelticCoalition 22-Aug-2006, 04:22 PM

I agree Antwn.

I think the only thig I would add is that many who demand respect for their religion do not extend the same expected respect to others.

Posted by: Dogshirt 22-Aug-2006, 07:47 PM

QUOTE

I think the only thig I would add is that many who demand respect for their religion do not extend the same expected respect to others.

I would say it is less about respecting someonesle's beliefs and more about respecting their RIGHT to belive as they wish. But should be a mutual respect. you cannot expect someone to respect your right to belive if you deny him that right.

Posted by: Antwn 23-Aug-2006, 02:09 PM

QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 22-Aug-2006, 08:47 PM)

By virtue of the fact that one is able to conceive of a belief he has the right to it. Who has the ability to deny anyone the right to believe anything? How's that possible? No one controls your mental choices, therefore its a moot point. Its like the phrase "having a right to one's opinion" - your ability to formulate an opinion ensures your right to have one. No one can remove that ability, you either engage it or pretend you don't have it, therefore the phrase "having a right to an opinion/belief" makes no sense.

Posted by: reddrake79 28-Sep-2006, 03:36 PM

When I said respect, I did not meen ignorance. We have come to the crux of the matter here. There are many religions in our world. Many of them sound familiar. (my personal research is definatly not exhaustive) Some (ie christianity, judaism, islam, etc) say that there is 1 way to heaven. This is exclusive, it means that according to our beliefs and the BIBLE that other people are wrong. Nobody likes to here that they are wrong and this justifiably stirs up emotion. I have had the phrase, "you need to respect my beliefs" thrown at me. But, by my understanding of how to get to heaven, my saying, "your belierfs won't get you to heaven" is a sign of respect (depending on how its said) I care enough about you as a human to take the time to try to show you the right way according to my beliefs. What you (generic person) do with that is up to each, but just because a person believes differently doesn't mean that I stop thinking they are wrong. I respect their belief by pointing out any obvious problems it has.

Back to the Bible and sin.
First off I only quoted a few verses about a very expansive topic. The Bible says all have sinned (everybody) Me, you the person down the street. There is nothing we can do about it. The Bible says that Jesus is the ONLY one who can fix that. In the new testament there are many verses that talk about how a christian should nolonger sin. We are imperfect though, and still sin. YEs all christians go to heaven. The bible also talks about treasures that we earn in heaven.

Posted by: reddrake79 28-Sep-2006, 11:52 PM

I ran out of time to finish my earlier thought
The bible (especially New Testament) talks a lot about the continual conflict between sin and righteousness. That topic should probably go into another thread though as it is a huge arena.

Posted by: reddrake79 29-Sep-2006, 12:10 AM

How is the Bible subjective?

Subjective as defined my Miriam Webster's online:

3 a : characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind : b : relating to or being experience or knowledge as conditioned by personal mental characteristics or states
4 a (1) : peculiar to a particular individual : PERSONAL <subjective judgments> (2) : modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background <a subjective account of the incident> b : arising from conditions within the brain or sense organs and not directly caused by external stimuli <subjective sensations> c : arising out of or identified by means of one's perception of one's own states and processes

If the ideas held in the Bible are subjective, then it is an amazing coincedence that there are that many human authors who write about the exact same ideas and share the same philosophy over a few thousand years. Plus 2timothy 3:16 says that God wrote the bible "all scripture is God breathed....." That is, coming directly from God. He also said he would preserve it. There are more copies of the Bible, which are essentially unchanged, than any other ancient document in the world. If anyone is in a position to know right and wrong it is God.

btw how did we go from "what if we are wrong" to discussions about sin?

Posted by: CelticCoalition 29-Sep-2006, 11:47 AM

I believe that the bible is subjective for the following reasons:

First, it was recorded by people. Regardless of whether these people heard every word of the bible from God or not, in order for the bible to be a completely objective piece of material on God's word the recorders would have to have written everythign down just as God intended, with no interpretation of their own on events or what God was saying. I do not believe this happened.

The other part of this is I have to believe that everything in the Bible is only what God intended to be there and no additions by anyone else who either: a)had an agenda in adding something or b)thought they were hearing God when really they were mentally ill or c)recorded things second, third, etc hand or d) any other reason besides actual divine inspiration.

I also believe the Bible is subjective because even if everything in the Bible is objective recordings as God intended, people interpret the Bible differently. The factioning of the Christian Religions is only one part of this. People also believe very strongly in certain aspects of the bible and not others. Transubstatiation, what it takes to enter heaven, homosexuality, contraceptives, etc are all interpreted differently by different people and groups. Many things in the bible are agreed upon, but many are not.

That is why I believe the Bible is subjective.

Posted by: reddrake79 29-Sep-2006, 03:33 PM

Then it would be the people talking about the bible, not the bible itself that is subjective.
Is it correct to assume that a person who believes this way does not believe in an all powerful God that can work outside the known standards of science?

undoubtedly there were other witnesses to the same events that wrote their experiences down, but the ones collected into the Bible are the ones given authority for near 2000 years.

My belief is that an all powerful God selected these writings from any others because they say what he wants them to say. The way they understood their experiences was the correct way and the way that God wanted people to remember. Look at some of the writers: Moses, chosen to lead an entire nation out of captivity. David, king who the bible calls- A man after God's own heart. Mathew & John: 2 of Jesus' desciples that spent a lot of time with Him. Peter: also 1 of the 12 who later went all over the roman empire preaching. Saul (Paul) a member of one of the strictest sects of the Jews who converted to christianity

I think these people were in a good position to know God.

Posted by: haynes9 11-Oct-2006, 06:01 AM

Not to wax theological, but I peter tells us that the Scripture was given by God to holy men of old and that it is of no private interpretation. There are many applications of Scripture, but only one interpretation. This is where all the conflicts arise.

I believe in the verbal and plenary inspiration of the Bible. God was able to use individuals from all walks of life, most of whom did not know each other personally, and make a book with a common thread: the way of redemption for man.

Have a great day, all!

Posted by: Shadows 11-Oct-2006, 07:13 AM

If mankind follows the basic teachings of most major religions; ie: do unto others as ye would have done unto you...

...Some religions extend this amentity to conver all aspects of life, animal, plant, etc...

...then this world would not be in the throws of inilation it now finds itself very near too...

I quote my great uncle the Jesuit... "Jesus lifted a rock and said " Behold the kindom of God our father."

This quote is in a scripture that the bishops of long ago decided did not fit their needs to control the masses.

All biblical verse we have today has been edited and twisted to fit the needs of the "church", just as the Koran is beeing distorted and used to fuel the hatred of christians and democrocy!

I am off my soapbox now. LOL!

Posted by: haynes9 11-Oct-2006, 07:38 AM

QUOTE (Shadows @ 11-Oct-2006, 07:13 AM)

This quote is in a scripture that the bishops of long ago decided did not fit their needs to control the masses.

All biblical verse we have today has been edited and twisted to fit the needs of the "church", just as the Koran is beeing distorted and used to fuel the hatred of christians and democrocy!

I am off my soapbox now. LOL!

Hi Shadows.

Don't' always agree with your posts, but always enjoy reading them.

I agree with you to a point on verses being twisted, but that depends on the version of the Bible that you use. Not to get ridiculously technical, but the Antiochian textual family is, IMHO, the best lineage for Biblical translation. The Alexandrian family has been corrupted and is unreliable. Most versions that twist Scriptures come form that family.

Take care and have a great day!

Posted by: Shadows 11-Oct-2006, 08:10 AM

Not to be combative or disagreeing, but...

The christian church back in the "I forget the dates right now somewhere in the late 100's" had a council of bishops that sat down and decided what would be and would not be considered "the word of God".

To me this is not the word of God, but rather the words of man being described as the "word".

There are ancient texts coming to light today that refute as well as confirm some of the words of God.

divine insite is a self proclaimed trait and not all that say they speak the word of God or interpret the ancient verses as "gospel" can trusted.

One needs to go back to the ancient sources and read for themselves before one can make a truly " enlightened" decision on what is real and what is not...

In my opinion anything that has passed through man's hands since the origin of these texts ( most were written centuries after your saviours death ) can not be trusteds due to the "hand of man".

I honor your opinion and beliefs, but see fault in the centuries of manipulation of the words no matter what school of biblical study one follows.

Religion is like government; both are forms of control by appeasement.

Posted by: haynes9 11-Oct-2006, 08:28 AM

Shadows, I do not consider what you are saying to be combative. I don't agree with you, but you are a gentleman and civil. I enjoy the dialog and thanks for your input.

I won't get into a debate on dating the writing of Scriptures. The Syriac and other versions can be traced to the Textus Receptus. As for the newer documents coming to light, one has to look at the presuppositions of the translators. John the Apostle had an ongoing battle with Gnosticism and other heresies. Many newly discovered ancient texts come from the Alexandrian school of thought. As you have eloquently stated, (in so many words) men mess up what God means for good. The tracing of the steps that brought about the Scriptures is actually a fascinating study. The councils that determined canonicity (and you're right! Who can remember the dates

) were not a group of "fly by nighters" who made arbitrary decisions. It is obviously way too detailed to go into on this forum, but a neat study, nonetheless. I would be interested in the references you have looked at in your research and would gladly share the same with you.

I also dislike religion in general. I am an Independent (non-denominational) Baptist and find many churches today in that control mode you speak of. I have had the joy, though, of being involved with churches that care about people more than they do their social standing or offerings. There is a man I am working with now who is wrecked by alcohol and is trying to save is marriage. It is a challenge, but the Scriptures have given him hope and made a difference.

Enjoy the debate, my friend! Have a good day and thanks for bringing these things up.

Posted by: gwen 11-Oct-2006, 11:04 AM

i've enjoyed reading all the posts regarding some of fundamental religious questions. i think it is wonderful that we can all have so many different viewpoints but can still share them with respect and kindness. if only the rest of the world were that way. sometimes it's difficult to see good people with hard times, disease, war, crime, corruption, etc., and be able to see that while God is perfect, people are not. He loves us, so He allows us to make choices as we strive to become more like him. Not all of our choices are good, and some are truly horrific.
i am comforted by the knowledge that He loves us and will bless us for the righteous choices that we make, regardless of our religion. And yes, I am a member of an organized Christian religion with defined doctrine, and I do believe that it is the truth of the gospel, that it is the one true church on earth today. However, I also know that our Father in Heaven is a merciful God, and will not 'condemn' anyone to hell simply because they were raised differently or have not come to a knowledge of the truth. All will have the chance to know and accept the gospel, whether in this life or the next, and will be judged on that and on the quality of their life on earth. There are many so-called "Christians" that do not live what Christ taught, that commit unspeakable evil, that are more likely to feel the wrath of God than are good Muslims (or Buddhists, or whatever) that live good lives according to how they have been taught. In the grand scheme of things, I am grateful for a loving Father that will do what is best for us. saves me a lot of worry.

Posted by: Antwn 11-Oct-2006, 11:56 AM

QUOTE (haynes9 @ 11-Oct-2006, 09:28 AM)

The councils that determined canonicity (and you're right! Who can remember the dates

I believe you're referring to the councils of Nicea, right? If you do a Google search using the keywords "Nicea council" you'll find several entries from which to begin your research. The first was in the year 325, the second in 787.

Posted by: haynes9 11-Oct-2006, 02:11 PM

QUOTE (aliviel27 @ 11-Oct-2006, 12:55 PM)

I have seen people sitting in a Church on a Sunday and also seen them do the worst things they can do when they don't go to Church. Many of them are hypocrites.

Being a preacher, I can certainly tell you that I have seen my share of hypocrites in church. I have also seen them at Wal-mart, in factories, in schools, in politics, in virtually every walk of life. I think you get my point.

Churches do not have the corner on the hypocrite market. Some choose never to go to church again because of hypocrites. I can understand that. However, since I like to eat, I have chosen to continue to go to the grocery store, even though there are some hypocrites that work there.

Point is, generalization is a risky thing.

Have a great day!

Posted by: haynes9 11-Oct-2006, 04:02 PM

What a bad situation, Aliviel27! I am so sorry you went through that and am ashamed that this person would name the name of Christ.

The Bible condemns hypocrisy. There is a story of a religious leader in the Bible (called a Pharisee) who was arrogant and proud of his background and looked down on others who had not reached his "level." The Bible says he "prayed with himself" which is very true. The Lord was not interested in his prayer. Int he same room was a publican (similar to a tax collector of today) who did not even feel worthy to look up. All he asked of God was mercy. Scripture states the publican was justified and the Pharisee was not.

Let me also say this. Not everyone who names the name of Christ knows Him. The Bible is clear on that. As human beings, we cannot look into the heart of a man. We are limited to what we see on the outside. I have been cussed out by some people who claimed to be good church members. It is hard for me to believe that they know the same Christ as I do.

You asked does God forgive people like this man who wronged you. Yes, He does. He forgives any who come to Him in genuine repentance over their sin. I cannot judge this man who wronged you, but it seems to me that if he was really living what he claims to believe, he should have come to you personally and admitted his wrong and asked for your forgiveness and then have done all he could to make it right. It is a "cop out' used by many people to say that God has forgiven them and then they never seek to make things right with the one they have wronged.

I can tell you this. God forgave and continue to forgive me when I do wrong. To be honest, I'm a pretty sorry human being, I think. I can be selfish, self centered, and pretty much every other vice you can name. But I do seek to be a better man, husband, and dad and regularly ask the Lord to show me my faults and help me make things right with those I have wronged. I have had to apologize to folks on this forum for my attitude. That's what being a true believer is about.

By the way, thank you for your honest spirit. You come across to me as one who is more interested in knowing the truth that proving your point of view. I wish I could say that all Christians are like that!

I am praying for the health situation you are in. May the Lord give you many good pain free days, my friend.

Have a great day!

Posted by: CelticCoalition 11-Oct-2006, 05:50 PM

QUOTE (reddrake79 @ 29-Sep-2006, 03:33 PM)

First, the bible is not an object, but a recording done by individuals. Even if it is the word of God, it would be the subjective opinons and recordings of God. Unless of course it is the belief that God is the supreme form of objectivity.

Also, I do not think is is correct to assume that this belief corresponds with the disbelief in an all powerful God. This is not a lack of faith in God, it is a lack of faith in the bible. Some might say this is one in the same, but I disagree. I do not beleive that the men in charge of handling the writings of the bible are infalible. But that is simply my subjective opinon of the bible.

Perhaps the people involved were in a position to know God. Perhaps the supposed writers of the bible were just a group of people or one person collecting history and giving historical events a divine explanation. The fact is that only those who wrote the bible knew whether they were honest or not, and only God knows who really was divinely inspired and who was mentally ill and hallucinating. I choose to discover my own way to God rather than trust in the Bible.

However, just because people do not follow the bible does not make what is in the bible false. We have laws in this country that make murder illegal. That does not force people not to kill, nor do muderers invalidate the laws. The bible does have many good teachings, and the fact that people don't follow those teachings does not have anything to do with their validity. According to the Bible God gave man free will. Free will means we can choose to follow God or not, as far as I understand it.

I truly believe in a higher power, and I also believe that that higher power meddles in our affairs very little. If someone chooses their own path in opposition to that higher power, that is their right. But that does not mean their are not consequences. The evil acts of men does not prove that a God doesn't exist. It mearly proves that evil does exist. The righteous acts of men proves that there is also an opposite to evil. God has nothing to do with these choices, they are our own.

Posted by: haynes9 11-Oct-2006, 08:23 PM

I will certainly keep you in prayer, my friend. If I can be a listening ear for you, that's fine.

We had our prayer service tonight here on the Navajo Nation and the little group of folks in our church prayed for you specifically. Sometimes it helps me just knowing others are out there that care.

I hope you can get some answers and get treatment more suited to the actual problem. Keep us posted on any progress in that area.

Take care and I hope we can visit again soon.

Posted by: gwen 16-Oct-2006, 11:28 AM

haynes9...thank you for your postings. i always enjoy your benevolent wisdom and your faith. it is very true that just knowing there are others out there that care makes a tremendous difference. also knowing that our Father is there is warm and comforting.

i am sorry that you are troubled, Aliviel27. you will be in my thoughts and prayers as well.

Posted by: haynes9 17-Oct-2006, 06:45 PM

QUOTE (gwen @ 16-Oct-2006, 11:28 AM)

Thank you for your kindness, Gwen. As for wisdom, could I quote you to my kids

?

Seriously, thanks for the kind comments. I am not a theologian or a philosopher. I just want to try and be a blessing to folks and stand firmly on my faith, yet without coming across as if I were better than someone else.

Take care and have a great day!

Posted by: John Clements 24-Apr-2007, 03:42 PM

In light of what�s going on these days. Maybe there is something to the idea of �revelation�. Or, maybe we�re just going to get to the �truth�. The question is: can you handle it?

Oh yes, I�m so happy to hear, that now, all un-baptized children will be going to �heaven� instead of limbo, along with all of us who dared to eat meat on Fridays.

That is of course, unless you�ve been to confession, in which case you get a free pass.

You know what. I�d probably still love you all, even if �god� were left out of the picture.

JC

Posted by: Antwn 26-Apr-2007, 11:39 AM

QUOTE (John Clements @ 24-Apr-2007, 04:42 PM)

You know what. I�d probably still love you all, even if �god� were left out of the picture.

Good for you John, and you're probably not alone. Not everyone needs a justification from on high. For some, a simple choice is enough.

Posted by: haynes9 26-Apr-2007, 04:04 PM

QUOTE (John Clements @ 24-Apr-2007, 03:42 PM)

Oh yes, I�m so happy to hear, that now, all un-baptized children will be going to �heaven� instead of limbo, along with all of us who dared to eat meat on Fridays.

That is of course, unless you�ve been to confession, in which case you get a free pass.

You know what. I�d probably still love you all, even if �god� were left out of the picture.

JC

Hey John, you didn't imply this, but let me go ahead and say it anyway

! Not all theologies condemned unbaptized infants to eternal damnation. In fact, we independent Baptists don't baptize infants at all. And I also don't have a confessional for folks to tell me about their sins. There is One that they can confess to and I'm not Him. And I am not saying that you were using the "broad brush" with your statements. Just thought I'd toss in a little clarity for my own sake.

Trust you've been doing well. We haven't had a good argument in a while! What's this forum coming to

?

Have a great day.

Posted by: John Clements 27-Apr-2007, 09:31 AM

QUOTE (CelticCoalition @ 11-Oct-2006, 06:50 PM)

The evil acts of men does not prove that a God doesn't exist. It mearly proves that evil does exist. The righteous acts of men proves that there is also an opposite to evil. God has nothing to do with these choices, they are our own.

You took the words right out of my mouth. JC

Posted by: John Clements 27-Apr-2007, 04:45 PM

QUOTE (haynes9 @ 26-Apr-2007, 05:04 PM)

QUOTE (John Clements @ 24-Apr-2007, 03:42 PM)

Hey John, you didn't imply this, but let me go ahead and say it anyway

?

Have a great day.

I love you hanynes9, but I�m afraid it�s time to take off the gloves.
Now here�s the way I see it. In the beginning, that is when man first crawled out of the slime. He worshiped things he didn�t understand, and couldn�t control. Natural things, like the sun, the moon, the earth, the seas and so on. He even went so far as to sacrifice animals and humans, to appease these �gods�.
Then, some where along the line, somebody, (most likely an opportunist), had the bright idea of creating the big kahuna god. A god above all other gods, a god, coincidently, created in our own image. A god, they could be control, for there own benefit.
So, since then, (oh I don�t know the exact order of the religions), but let�s begin with Judaism, which begot the Christians, which begot Protestants, which begot Baptists, which begot born gains, and so on. Of course that�s not to forget Islam, Buddhism, and all those other spin off religions out there. All religions, which preach more or less the same guarantee of a wonderful life in the here after, (I like to think of it as an insurance policy), of going to so called heaven. Providing of course, that you continue to drop money in the basket, and promise not to start your own religion, less you�ll be condemned for eternity. (It all sounds like a �Wall Street stock split to me). If you ask me, I think we should go should go back to Paganism, (minus the human sacrificing of course). At least then we�ll be able to see and feel, the real gods of nature.
JC

PS: Sorry about my poor writing of this, prior to my editing. Not that it�s much better now.

Posted by: connor1985 12-Sep-2007, 08:22 AM

hey not trying to restart any old fights but i would like to get this topic rolling again so lets post what we think and bring this back

Posted by: John Clements 16-Nov-2007, 12:11 PM

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

I think this movie just about says it all.

Posted by: John Clements 27-Nov-2007, 08:12 AM

Well it�s been some 10 days or so, since I posted the movie: �ZEITGEIST��and even though it�s been hit on some 30 times, I have yet to see one response to it?

So here I am wondering...could it be that most of you don�t have a computer capable of playing the movie, or could it be, that the movie left you dumb founded, as it did me?

Come to think of it�maybe I should have posted the movie on �The Grove�, under (Cultural Theft), because I believe it fits in that category as well.

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

Sorry if it rocks your world.

Posted by: John Clements 04-Jan-2008, 11:32 AM

Hi Paul! Just thought you�d like to know, that my records show that my last post on this thread was on 11/16/07. At which time there were some 1351 viewers, (which is far cry from what the thread now shows). And in addition when I last checked this thread, which was the day before the system failure on 12/24/07, (which believe me, I totally understand, having a great deal of experience with failure) it had a total of some 1439 viewers?

Now please don�t misunderstand me. In truth the posting dates and the viewer count don�t really matter that much to me. But what does matte, is the message of the movie that I posted. That is of course if one can get past George Carlin�s rue-teen, in which case one might actually hear the truth, for a change. (That is at least in my opinion)! You know what they say: �The devils in the details�.

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

Like the sub head of this thread says: �Enter if you dare but don�t get offended�. (Which is sort of like saying��don�t take it personally�! When they fire you! Isn�t it?

Anyway thanks,
JC