| QUOTE (Shadows @ 05-Mar-2005, 05:05 PM) |
| led to the disappearance of the religion. |
Shadows, did I read this right? Because I know of many people today who are still practicing the religion, which is why I ask this question. Thanks.
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| Celtic Radio Community > The Grove > Druidism |
| Posted by: Shadows 05-Mar-2005, 04:05 PM |
| Druidism, religious faith of ancient Celtic inhabitants of Gaul and the British Isles from the 2nd century bc until the 2nd century ad. In parts of Britain that the Romans did not invade, Druidism survived until it was supplanted by Christianity two or three centuries later. This religion included belief in the immortality of the soul, which at death was believed to pass into the body of a newborn child. According to Julius Caesar, drawing on a biased account of the cult written by Posidonius, a Stoic philosopher and historian, the Druids believed that they were descended from a supreme being. The ancient accounts assert that the functions of priests, religious teachers, judges, and civil administrators were performed by Druids, with supreme power being vested in an archdruid. Three classes of Druids existed: prophets, bards, and priests. They were assisted by female prophets or sorcerers, who did not enjoy the powers and privileges of the Druids. The Druids were well versed in astrology, magic, and the mysterious powers of plants and animals; they held the oak tree and the mistletoe, especially when the latter grew on oak trees, in great reverence, and they customarily conducted their rituals in oak forests. Archaeologists believe that the Druids probably used as altars and temples the stone monuments known as dolmens (see Dolmen) that are found throughout the areas where Druidism flourished. Stonehenge in England antedates Druidism by many centuries. The Druids led their people in resisting the Roman invasions, but their power was weakened by the rebelliousness of the Gallic warriors, who were envious of their political authority. The superior military strength of the Romans and the subsequent conversion of many followers of Druidism to Christianity led to the disappearance of the religion. |
| Posted by: Shadows 05-Mar-2005, 04:09 PM |
| and here is part of the text from the link to magic: I INTRODUCTION Magic (sorcery), art of attaining objectives, acquiring knowledge, or performing works of wonder through supernatural or nonrational means. Techniques used in magic typically include chants and spells, gestures or actions that often have a symbolic relation to the desired result (for example, acting out a successful hunt of the past to make a future hunt successful), and the use of substances believed to have a special relationship with the powers needed to accomplish the intended purpose. II TYPES OF MAGIC Anthropologists distinguish three types of magical practice: homeopathic magic, or the use of small portions of a thing to represent and affect the whole; sympathetic magic, in which a symbolic action (for example, sticking pins into a doll) affects an object with which the symbol is in ?sympathy? or harmony; and contagious magic, the influencing of one thing through contact with another that is believed to be magically charged. The theoretical foundation for most magical practices is a belief in correspondences, or hidden relationships among entities within the universe?especially between human beings and the external world. According to this view, the application of the right colors, objects, sounds, or gestures in a given context can bring about the desired result. The theory of correspondences affirms the power of thought to confer reality on products of the imagination, particularly when these thoughts are expressed through significant symbols. Magic is widely practiced in primal and traditional societies. In such contexts magic is not simply a prescientific way of attaining practical ends?it may also involve at least a partial symbolic recognition of the society?s spiritual world view and of its gods and myths. In this respect magic often merges with religion, and indeed the line between the two is frequently blurred. Religion, however, is usually regarded as the public acknowledgment of spirituality, while magic tends to be private and oriented toward power and gain by supernatural means rather than toward worship. A distinction can also be drawn between white and black magic: White magic is employed for benign ends, and black magic is used to harm others. Black magic is sometimes referred to as witchcraft or sorcery, even though many people who practice witchcraft do not seek to cause harm. Magic in the supernatural sense is different from stage magic, in which apparent magical effects are produced for entertainment through such means as sleight of hand (see Magic). A distinction is also made between magic and divination, which is the art of foretelling the future course of events: Magic attempts to affect the future, not merely to predict it. By this definition, occult practices such as astrology, card-reading, and palmistry are not magical (see Occultism), whereas concocting love potions and casting spells are magical practices, as is the art of invoking spirits by means of chants and gestures (see Spiritualism). Many practitioners of magic also believe that these techniques must be combined with concentration of thought upon the desired objective. |
| Posted by: CelticRose 05-Mar-2005, 06:15 PM | ||
Shadows, did I read this right? Because I know of many people today who are still practicing the religion, which is why I ask this question. Thanks. |
| Posted by: Aaediwen 05-Mar-2005, 08:46 PM | ||
Druidism in its original form is long gone. The neo-Druids of today are attempting an amiable and monumentous task of trying to revive the religon from what little knowedge has survived, but there are so many holes that we can't know how the old Druids believed and worshipped with any certainty. so modern Druidic practices won't be like they were all those years ago. |
| Posted by: CelticRose 05-Mar-2005, 08:59 PM |
| Oh! Thanks so much Aaediwen for explaining this to me. I find this topic very interesting. |
| Posted by: Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 06-Mar-2005, 07:40 PM |
| A resource I highly recommend for those interested in ancient Druidism is "The Druids" by Peter Berresford Ellis. Mr. Ellis presents a persuasive argument that while the Druid class included the Celtic priesthood, Druids were essentially the intellectual class of the Celts. As such, the Druids included not only religious professionals, but also philosophers, judges, teachers, historians, political advisors, and even some kings, among other professions. When the Druids becaome Chrisitians, they essentially continued doing what they had always done, with a few changes. For example, they started writing instead of committing everything to memory, which resulted in the the flowering of Irish literature. Thus, much of what we know of pre-Christian Ireland is the result of former Druids, who became Christian monks, writing down what they had previsously memorized, albeit with a Christian gloss on what had been a pagan oral tradition. Arguably, those who claim to be "Druids" now have merely hijacked the name, but are in fact practicing something other than pre-Christian Druidism. |
| Posted by: CelticRose 06-Mar-2005, 07:52 PM |
| Thanks Mailagnus for that information. I have not read that book you have mentioned, but I have read some on Druidism and from what I have read it did state all those sames things your author mentions. The ancient Druids strongly believed in the Fae too, did they not? |
| Posted by: Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 06-Mar-2005, 08:09 PM |
| CelticRose, I haven't really studied the Fae as such, but from what I recall they are derived from the Tuath de Danaan, a pre-Celtic Irish tribe, and so the pre-Christian Irish, including their Druids, would likely have believed in them. It seems to me that they were supposed to have been among the original inhabitants of Ireland who, following their defeat by the Milesians, went underground, so to speak. |
| Posted by: Aaediwen 07-Mar-2005, 01:54 PM |
| Here, you are getting into where the line between real history and mythology is blurred to the point of non-existance. The Thutha de Danann were the original inhabitants of Ireland. It is they who became the Celtic gods and goddesses (Rhiannon, Brighid, Kerridwen, Bel, etc...). Where they came from is unknown. I've even heard it said that perhaps they were Atlantian evacuees. I would recommend reading the story of Brighid's Mantle at some point. According to Celtic mythology, they were eventually replaced as a power in the isles, by the followers of Finn MacCoul (known as the Finnians). The Thutha de Danann, however, continued on. more likely known as na Sidhe, the fae. It is believed that the inhabitants of Ireland even today are descendants from the Thutha de Danann and the Finnians. With the comming of Christianity, many of the Celtic deities became Catholic saints (St. Brigit). But what is real and what is no more than a bardic tale is unknown. I've read stories of Rhiannon where she is prtrayed as a goddess, and I've also read the first book of the Mabinogion where she is a very real person who is wife to Dyfed. Where she comes from is unknown, but he meets her when she passes on the road below while he is sitting on the hill of Tara. What I've heard of Lugh places him as a very skilled man. Daughter of an unwitting (and as of his birth very ticked off) Arianrhod. There is more too  |
| Posted by: CelticRose 08-Mar-2005, 06:17 PM |
| Thanks guys! The little I have read on the subject of Druidism and the Fae is what you both have shared. And like Aaediwen says, there is that blur of mythology and history. I am still studying about it all, but you guys confirmed what I am read and taught me more! Thanks Shadows for starting this thread! |
| Posted by: Shadows 09-Mar-2005, 02:09 PM | ||
Mabinogion is a Welsh name as well Rhiannon! I researched this fully before I named one of my 3 girls after her! I will have to see if I have the info still on my machine... after all it was 19 years ago I named her, and before that it was her 1st sister that was to have the name, but family pressure did not allow it to happen then, 27 years ago.. . I will look and see if I can find it! |
| Posted by: Aaediwen 09-Mar-2005, 06:37 PM |
| Yes, the Mabinogion is Welsh lore. As with Rhiannon, Mabon, Culwich and Olwen, etc... |
| Posted by: Eiric 11-May-2005, 09:17 AM |
| Being what ye call Neo-Druid I have to tell you that we try to practise the sabbats etcetera in the Old traditoinal way, but as you say, much is gone and we have to sort of create a new druidism. I'm an ovate, the first step in becoming a druid, and therefor I cannot say that you're right or not, but being a neo-druid means studying Celtic history, culture, old Gaulish, the celtic languages, religion, mythology, and on and on and on... |
| Posted by: Druid_of_Ark 11-Dec-2007, 09:07 PM |
| My Dear CelticRose, there are many that practice Modern Druidry but alas the Ancient forms of the faith were wiped out when the Christians invaded and used their Loving God to convert people...of course those that did not convert to their God of love were quickly tortured to death. Anyway the modern reconstruction of Druidism is in fact close to but not the true Druidism. I have been a Druid for many years but I never deceive my students into believing that Druidism today is the same as was practiced in the 2nd century BCE through the 2nd Century CE. To do so would be less than honest and as a Druid I honour Honesty above all else. |
| Posted by: Sěmeag 27-Feb-2009, 04:23 PM | ||
Professor Ronald Hutton has also written a book, easily digestible for non-academics, entitled "http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1852855339/ref=s9_k2a_c5_t3?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=0HMJBJAK1TNHDJHPTP65&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=463374953&pf_rd_i=468294", which will be followed by a more academic tome later. |
| Posted by: Breandán 06-Jun-2009, 02:36 PM | ||
Just so we have this straight, the Tuatha De Danann, according to the Lebor Gabála Érenn and other texts, were one of a number of invading groups. According to the pseudo-historical text (greatly influenced by Christianity) there were the group that arrived with Cessair (who is described as the granddaughter of the biblical Noah), then the people of Partholon, the people of Nemed, the Fir Bolg (who were descendents of Nemed), and the Tuatha De Danann (also descendents of Nemed, but instructed in the "heathen arts") who were said to come from the "Northern Isles of the world". Finally, the Milesians (ancestors of the modern Gaels) invaded and conquered Ireland from the Tuatha De Danann. The Tuatha De Danann are described as made up of gods and un-gods (people of art, and your husbandmen or laborers) and a deal was struck with the Milesians that they would take the "lower half" of Ireland (underground) and the Milesians the "upper half". The Tuatha De Danann are most undoubtedly the old Gods of Ireland, but you were wrong in including Rhiannon, Kerridwen, and Bel as they are not Irish gods (but Welsh), whilst the Tuatha De Danann refer specifically to the gods of Ireland. And there are no indications that they are from Atlantis (a Greek, not Celtic, myth). Finn mac Cumhail never led anybody called the "Finnians", though he did lead a group of roaming warriors called the Fianna. Though other than the arrival of members of the Tuatha De Danann in the stories of the Fianna, there is nothing to suggest he ever replaced them, or whatever you are trying to say. And na Sidhe actually means "the mound" in Irish, refering to the mounds that the Tuatha De Danann are said to have inhabited. As for the Gods and Goddesses being represented in the Tales as human-like and such, there is a very different understanding of deity within Celtic cultures than in Greco-Roman or modern monotheistic cultures and therefore human-like qualities are not entirely an mere mix-up of what is real and what is fantasy. No doubt Christian scribes had a role in SOME, but certainly not all, the "demotion" of divinity amongst Celtic deities. |
| Posted by: Breandán 06-Jun-2009, 02:41 PM | ||
Though I must note that from what I have seen amongst Neo-Druids, they have no problem with practicing 8 so-called "sabbats". Only four of which are definately Celtic, the other four being Germanic (excluding Midsummer, when some Manx paid rent to Mananann, and there were also celebrations at Knock Aine, I believe). |
| Posted by: LibraryJim 06-Jun-2009, 03:47 PM | ||
Um ... no. In fact Ireland is perhaps one of the ONLY countries where mass, national conversion was accomplished WITHOUT the shedding of blood. The historical records (what few there are) show that from the time of Patrick, the people of Ireland, and this included the Druids, were quick to peacefully convert to the 'new religion'. The only real violence associated with the Celtic Christians occurred thanks to the Viking Invasions, when whole towns were massacred, villages and monasteries burned, and so much history lost when the books were destroyed. Any reliable history of Ireland will tell this is true. Try: Alcock, Leslie --Arthur’s Britain (Pelican/Penguin Books, NY, NY. 1985) An historical depiction of Britain from the 4th to the 7th Centuries, which includes sketches of Celtic life, mainly around Wales. Prof. Alcock focuses on the Arthurian legends and presents findings from the field of archeology, including the early effects of Christianity in the Isles. Illustrated with pictures of Celtic and British archeological relics. Ashe, Geoffrey Discovery of King Arthur (Anchor Press, Doubleday, NY, NY. 1985) More focused on the Arthurian Legend than Alcock, but has a wonderful chapter on “Saints, Bards and Heroes” that chronicles the early life and mythology of Wales. Unfortunately, most of this is presented as theory. Cahil, Thomas --How the Irish Saved Civilization Cahil explores an aspect of Celtic culture that had until that time been almost completely ignored – that the literacy of a tiny island during the Dark Ages preserved and later re-introduced cultural works of literature at a time that these had largely disappeared on the continent. Duncan, Anthony --Elements of Celtic Christianity (Element Books, Rockport MA. 1992) Bare Bones history of Christianity in Celtic lands from pre-Patrick to the Norman Invasion. What distinguishes this from a dry history is the inclusion of the chapter called “Celtic Christianity – so what?” that calls for a Celtic Christian revival in modern spirituality: “[Celtic Christianity] calls us back to what we are. It is a recall to reality…the spirituality of the Celt is the living of life with the head in the heart.” MacManus, Seumas --Story of the Irish Race (Devin Adair Company, Old Greenwich, Conn. 1980) Basically, the story of Irish civilization from the first Celts to come to Ireland though the Treaty that created the Irish Republic. Told with a Bard’s voice, 12 chapters are dedicated to Celtic Christianity and it’s impact on the development of Irish culture and legal systems. (Possibly out of print?) Toulson, Shirley --Celtic Alternative: Reminder of the Christianity We Lost (Rider, London, England. 1987) I discovered this book in a list of ‘other works’ in Ms. Toulson’s book “the Celtic Year” and found that it was not available in the U.S.! So I wrote Ms. Toulson and bought a copy directly from her. At only 150 pages, possibly one of the best ‘concise’ treatments of Celtic Christianity I’ve read. Ms. Toulson clearly feels that Celtic Christianity is “a picture of an open and balanced society which still has much to teach us of tolerance, persistence, and a tough but gentile kindness.” |
| Posted by: LibraryJim 06-Jun-2009, 03:49 PM |
| By the way, that was taken from a list, an annotated bibliography, I did for a research project on Celtic Christianity a few years back. --JE |
| Posted by: Breandán 08-Jun-2009, 10:47 AM |
| Thank you! I missed that before. Ireland was a rarity in how easily and peacefully it converted. |
| Posted by: Ainwyn 28-Sep-2009, 01:12 AM |
| I also believe that the idea that Irish saints were converted from Irish gods is something that's being debated. I read this somewhere, and will need to go digging for wherever it was that I found this. Thought I'd mention it though, as it wasn't touched on. Can anyone shed any light on this, either way? |
| Posted by: Amergin 13-Dec-2009, 08:55 PM |
| I am a Celtic Christian, and an aspiring bard. I seek knowledge of the old ways of the Celts, especially the Irish, and I pose an interesting conundrum. I know that no reconstruction of ancient druidic belief or practices can claim to be authoritative, but I have been fascinated by the stories of Morgan Llewellyn, who seems to have an excellent grasp of the ancient times, in so many ways. This is especially evident in her books, The Bard, and Thew Druids. I also realize that institutions have dramatically corrupted the Christianity of Jesus and the early disciples. In looking at what the Bible really teaches, as opposed to what organized religion may teach today, I find many areas of kinship with ancient Celts and Druids. I see some holes in their belief system, in that they see power and personality in so many aspects of nature, and yet fail to see the person who is the power behind it all, but I also see so much in common between anti-religious Christians such as I am, and those who lived so close to the nature world they could see the hand of the creator in every bush and tree. I see many posts on this board decrying the intolerance of contemporary (and certainly Medieval) Christianity toward the druids and ancient Celts, but I wonder if anyone has ever really explored the common ground between ancient Christianity and Celtic spirituality? I see so much in common that is never acknowledged by either side, and it saddens me. I've tried to read as much as I could on this forum before posing this question, but it wanders into so many areas, it is hard to find a common thread. So I seek the common ground between those who have a relationship with Christ, and those who commune with the nature He created; and I look for relationships with those who have a common quest. Are there any kindred spirits here? |