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Celtic Radio Community > Philosophy & Science > Are We By Nature Good Or Evil?


Posted by: maryellen 20-Oct-2003, 03:49 PM
The title explains most of it: are humans by nature good or evil. if we don't have laws that make us conduct ourselves nicely, then what would happen. Or if religion never existed or found out to be a big sham, what would happen?

"Lord of the Flies" by William Golding suggests we are evil by nature. Its a great book if you haven't read it.


Posted by: McHaggis 20-Oct-2003, 04:10 PM
Without laws? Why, that would be literal anarchy, eh? I would suggest that since eating of that (I believe allegorical) tree of the knowledge of good and evil that we "know" the difference between the two....of course, we recognize that there are extremes of what we know as evil, ie, the sociopath, or on the other hand, the "saint,"....and that we recognize that we all posses, to one degree or another, both capacities. Hence the Christian concept of Original Sin to explain why we, created in the image of God, are yet flawed.

Better to ask if the shark is good or evil....as it possesses just a little peanut-sized brain in that 300+ lb. body, 80% or more of which is dedicated to the sense of smell, if I recall correctly....no higher congitive functions at all, no prefrontal cortex to decide whether taking prey is good or bad....it just eats. Is it evil?

So the question is moot. All good.....or all evil? Some of both, probably...l.Nature seems to like the balance. And, of course, it's decided by consensus in the social contract what is an allowable percentage of either extreme....hence laws as guidelines.

Also recognize the concept of situational ethics.....some things are allowed under certain circumstances that would be abhorrent under others.....examples abound.

RON

Posted by: stevenpd 20-Oct-2003, 05:38 PM
QUOTE (maryellen @ Oct 20 2003, 02:49 PM)
"Lord of the Flies" by William Golding suggests we are evil by nature.

My take on the book is that the human species is neither. The story line in "Lord of the Flies" shows that no structure after structure is wholly dependant upon the participants. Structure can be defined in this intance as rules or laws governing social behavior. As the students learn that they do not answer to anyone but themselves the social fabric is torn between structure/no structure. This is identified by the two groups. Although it is a good book, the hypothesis that humans are evil by nature can not be born out due to the fact that the testing pool (students) has been tainted with limited exposure to structure (school), even though the students are relatively young they have had exposure to structure.

To truely look at the hypothis, one would have to look to an untainted group or a group that has not been exposed to any structure. The only time that could be possible would be the at the emergence of the human as a social species.

Posted by: maryellen 20-Oct-2003, 05:51 PM
In response to the shark, or any other animal, I cannot claim that it is good or evil since it does not have free will. Thats up for debate too I guess. But I've always been taught that only humans have free will- hence the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

Posted by: stevenpd 20-Oct-2003, 06:25 PM
Further, let us hypothesize that we have a group of one hundred humans together in one location at a point in history that is in the transition from migratory hunter-gathers to a stationary agrarian group. The make-up of such a group is wide ranging in age, personality traits, skills, and survival needs. One primary reason for such a group to assemble would be the numbers and the common need for survival. It would not be out of the realm reality to conclude safety in numbers.

This society would naturally develop conflicts. On the other hand if everyone is of the same mind then there can be no conflict. Conflict resolution would be the genisis of structure or rules/laws. The question to ask at this point is what is the nature of conflict resolution? Can it be purely democratic with one man, one vote with a simple majority ruling? Or can it be a representive republic where sub-groups elect a representaive to further the groups interests? Maybe it could be a socialist structure where a small group controls the labor of the rest? Or maybe it could be a communist structure where a small group controls the rest?

When life's decisions are simple, i.e. live or die, conflict resolution is also simple. This is where the exmanination needs to focus its attention. As new situations are presented the resolution can use previous solutions as part of the answer for the new resolution. At this beginning does the human species know anything of good and evil, right and wrong? Is there a sense of these things? If there is, what is it based on?

Posted by: Annabelle 20-Oct-2003, 07:02 PM
To what degree are we discussing good versus evil? Are we discussing it according to pre-existing laws or a world where there is nothing outside of existing?
Where do we set these limits?
If we were discussing today's civilized social world I believe we would still have to go back to being children. As we grow up in today's society at some age we begin to reason good against bad...at that point we decide. Sometimes the goals we want taint our objectiveness and we take the wrong road.
But gosh for a discussion like this we need perimeters...well, I've used all of my brain cells for the week. At least now the pressures off of me!
Annabelle rolleyes.gif angel_not.gif

Posted by: McHaggis 20-Oct-2003, 09:39 PM
"Perimeters?"

Or parameters?

Paradigms or paradiddles ( a percussion rudiment: LRLL-RLRR)

Posted by: McHaggis 20-Oct-2003, 09:44 PM
Re: sharks......oops, I forgot about free will vs. determinism. Thanks for pointing that out, maryellen.....my faux pas.

Sharks (ie, Whitey, The Man In The Gray Suit, The Landlord) has been on our minds here on the Central Coast lately as one of our own was eaten by a great white about a month and a half ago. Though I can't recall her name, I know I once sold her a surfboard out of Pismo Beach Surf Shop and she was an instructor at the local junior college.

But was her death good or evil? And what role did God and/or The Devil (assuming the existence of both) have in it?

Discuss:

RON

Posted by: birddog20002001 21-Oct-2003, 08:54 AM
I believe that each individual person has the potential for both supreme good and supreme evil, and throughout every life that lives to it's full measure both extremes probably will be displayed in one aspect or another. Those born with out the ability to access this full spectrum (in either end of the range) of reaction are in my opinion faulty. "If angels and devils did not exist we would have to invent them in order to expalain the various personalities of man". I heard that some where I don't quite remember where , but I do believe it

Posted by: stevenpd 21-Oct-2003, 02:16 PM
This age old question has many ramifications attached to it. If we are to discuss philosophy let's place the question into a context to narrow it down. I was discussing the question from its essence which then can be tested against current sociological norms as a contrast to see if those norms are correct. This will allow a basic definition to be refined that would be acceptable to a majority of people.

I do not believe that by our very nature we even understand the question. Almost all of the religions of the world believe in good/evil, ying/yang, enlightenment/darkness, and light/dark concepts. Here is the chicken or the egg question: Is religion created as a response to good/evil or is good/evil created as a response to religion?

Posted by: oldraven 21-Oct-2003, 02:51 PM
I think we're both. We're all good people with the potential for Evil when we are confronted.

Some people eventually suppress the good in themselves to the extent where no one can see it in them anymore. And others, recent news brings Mother Theresa to mind, choose to suppress the evil in themselves. But the majority of us are good at heart, but can each be corrupted.

No, I'm not wishy washy. I don't believe anyone is born evil. It all comes with time and bitterness.

Posted by: Shadows 21-Oct-2003, 03:29 PM
QUOTE (McHaggis @ Oct 20 2003, 06:10 PM)
Without laws? Why, that would be literal anarchy, eh? I would suggest that since eating of that (I believe allegorical) tree of the knowledge of good and evil that we "know" the difference between the two....of course, we recognize that there are extremes of what we know as evil, ie, the sociopath, or on the other hand, the "saint,"....and that we recognize that we all posses, to one degree or another, both capacities. Hence the Christian concept of Original Sin to explain why we, created in the image of God, are yet flawed.

Better to ask if the shark is good or evil....as it possesses just a little peanut-sized brain in that 300+ lb. body, 80% or more of which is dedicated to the sense of smell, if I recall correctly....no higher congitive functions at all, no prefrontal cortex to decide whether taking prey is good or bad....it just eats. Is it evil?

So the question is moot. All good.....or all evil? Some of both, probably...l.Nature seems to like the balance. And, of course, it's decided by consensus in the social contract what is an allowable percentage of either extreme....hence laws as guidelines.

Also recognize the concept of situational ethics.....some things are allowed under certain circumstances that would be abhorrent under others.....examples abound.

RON

I was going to ask what is defined as Good and what is defined as Evil...but...

I like your reply to this!

Evil and Good have social limits, what is Evil in one society might be ... I will not say good, but not evil in another. Again it comes down to what one believes.

Posted by: oldraven 21-Oct-2003, 03:44 PM
I think the simplest way to answer that question would be this. Good is the pursuit of peace and happiness, and Evil is the pursuit of harm or the cause of sadness for others. It's very broad, but the truth, in my opinion.

Posted by: MDF3530 21-Oct-2003, 03:50 PM
I believe that the vast majority of us are born good. I also believe that some of us people are more easily led down the road of evil than others. In Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, Professor Dumbledore tells Harry, "it is not our abilities that tell us who we are, it is our choices."

Posted by: oldraven 21-Oct-2003, 05:11 PM
Nice.

Way to quote Harry Potter. tongue.gif

Posted by: maryellen 21-Oct-2003, 05:57 PM
Star to oldraven for "good" definition of good and evil. sweet, simple and to the point. most cultures can agree with them. I might add that good is pursuit of peace and happiness for others and yourself. People can get very corrupt pursuing happiness for themselves.
I think everyone is pretty optimistic here with on average we all become good. 200 years ago, everyone was taught that children are born evil and they had to be molded. It was called something.... I forget what. Perhaps it is reflection of our times. Or we do believe that most people are good, or else the world would be a big mess.
I know not people like Dr. Laura, but she had a good analogy she mentioned once. She said that if we had no traffic signals, then it would be chaotic. Bad things would happen. Same as rules and morals. We only have the freedom to live when everyone abides rules.

Posted by: oldraven 21-Oct-2003, 06:07 PM
QUOTE (maryellen @ Oct 21 2003, 07:57 PM)
if we had no traffic signals, then it would be chaotic. Bad things would happen.

thumbs_up.gif yes.gif

Automotive analogies always make more sense to me. wink.gif

Posted by: MDF3530 21-Oct-2003, 07:09 PM
QUOTE (oldraven @ Oct 21 2003, 06:11 PM)
Nice.

Way to quote Harry Potter. tongue.gif

Hey, if the shoe fits...

Posted by: McHaggis 22-Oct-2003, 10:44 PM
If the shoe fits.....you're name is Cinderella?

You're a woman who puts comfort above style?

Your farrier does a good job?

Your mechanic got the right parts for that brake job: meaning the parts for your International finally got here from Ft. Wayne, Indiana (IHC and Scout owners everywhere are nodding their heads in agreement....)?

RON


Posted by: oldraven 23-Oct-2003, 09:27 AM
QUOTE (MDF3530 @ Oct 21 2003, 09:09 PM)
QUOTE (oldraven @ Oct 21 2003, 06:11 PM)
Nice.

Way to quote Harry Potter.  tongue.gif

Hey, if the shoe fits...

laugh.gif


cheers.gif



McHaggis, doesn't it feel odd to be driving a vehicle named Harvester? tongue.gif I know your story well. Try finding PRC (Programmed Ride Control) shocks for an '87 T-bird Turbocoupe. sad.gif Let alone a damned replacement tailight. It's like my parts guy lives on e-bay.

Posted by: McHaggis 30-Oct-2003, 11:29 AM
The Scouts and IHCs are all in the past now......and yes, driving a 4 cyl Scout across the country was like driving a tractor.....very noisy!! Had to put a big amp on the stereo just to drown out the sound the engine! Used to tell passengers "Don't EVEN try to converse, just buckle up and shut up 'till we get there!" After a 3-day grind the operative word was SHELL SHOCK..if you could hear anything at all!!

Back on topic: The Scout was GOOD!!! (Not EVIL.) It saved my bacon many times in the Upper Midwest and The Rockies!!

RON

Posted by: Swanny 30-Oct-2003, 10:57 PM
I believe that the vast majority of people are by nature good-hearted and well-intentioned, but I have met a few who are evil through and through. Not just criminal (I've met many of them, too but don't necessarily equate 'criminal' with 'evil'). In this context I'm referring to people who are seriously and soul-deep intent upon upon doing as much harm as possible to as many as possible. I won't go into detail as it's much too depressing.

I can think of a couple of people I've encountered during my career who I honestly believe were born without a "soul", just as some children are born without a limb, or without sight or some other sense. That indescribable something that some call the 'spark of humanity' wasn't there. I do sincerely hope and pray to never encounter such a person again.

Swanny

Posted by: bhalilama 30-Oct-2003, 11:56 PM
McHaggis,I don't know 'nuthin 'bout good or evil automobiles,but I did see "Christine".And it's always good when my jaloppy gets me where I'm going.

Posted by: bhalilama 31-Oct-2003, 12:08 AM
On a serious note, it seems to me that society dictates the body of what is considered "evil",so it must by default dictate what is "good". I personally would like to believe that if mankind had no type of "law" we would be loving and kind. We all know that would not be the case.That's a utopic dream.There is a cut of the population that will be the ones to torture animals when they are kids,then grow up to be serial killers. This is regardless of environmental influence.So in closing,like religion and if you like to eat cabbage,good and evil has to come down to personal decisions. Blessed BE

Posted by: maryellen 01-Nov-2003, 07:23 AM
So I guess your answer is yes and no? I do agree though- some would not hurt others by some innate "instinct?" and others would go killing. I hear this a lot from the boys at our school. Not to put the male sex down or anything. I think perhaps since males no longer hunt and kill for their food, then the aggression gets channeled in other ways.

Posted by: Swanny 01-Nov-2003, 11:36 AM
QUOTE
I think perhaps since males no longer hunt and kill for their food, then the aggression gets channeled in other ways.


That's an astute observation, Marryellen, but I'm not convinced that it's entirely accurate. It may be applicable in urbanized areas to some extent. It is documented that boys who hunt are less likely to commit violent crimes than those who do not. I wonder if that might not be because boys who hunt have more exposure to, and experience with, potentially lethal weapons and probably a more realistic understanding of the finality of death.

In Alaska's bush regions, where subsistence hunting is an absolute necessity (not just a life-style choice) the per-capita homicide rate is rather astounding. In the vast majority of homicides committed in bush villages alcohol abuse is cited by LEOs (law enforcement officers, sorry) as a major contributing factor.

When vexed by human behavior I often find that the explanations that finally make sense in my brain are based on a biological model. I'm willing to accept as fact that we humans are large, hairless, omnivorous, gregarious primates and at some level much of our behavior is based on primal instinct. Sometimes comparing human behavior to that of other species helps me sort things out.

In most gregarious species males aggressively defend territory and compete for dominance within the "troop" (tribe, pack, pod, group, whatever term you wish to use). When a bunch of boys get caught wrestling around in the schoolyard and the teacher asks "What are you boys doing?", don't they often reply that they are "just monkeying around?" (sorry, couldn't resist injecting a bit of humor here). I've read that sociologists think that like immature apes, wolves, puppies and any other young gregarious creatures, the boys are subconciously competing for dominence which in nature is determined by physical size, strength and coordination. Through play most dominence issues in animals are resolved prior to adulthood, so that when fully mature males face off in dominence disputes the fight can end with a show of submission, rather than the death of a combatant.

Using the biological model of human behavior, it seems to me that most physical altercations are disputes over territory (wars, gang-fights over turf, &c) or dominence (especially domestic violence).

Where we humans vary somewhat from other gregarious species is that it seems as though a larger proportion of our altercations result in fatalities. This is not unheard of in nature. Territorial disputes between packs of wolves or prides of lions often end with a fatality, but it's rare in nature for disputes among members of the same group (pack, &c) to have a fatal result.

I believe that the reason more human intra-tribal disputes have fatal results is due to a disfunction within the assailant's brain. Most commonly due to alcohol or other mind/judgement altering substances, but sometimes due to other mental disorders. (bi-polar disease and sometimes schizophrenia)

I can appreciate someone killing another in order to survive, hunting for food or in self defense. I can even understand how someone might kill another in a fit of rage. We have all been angry enough to harm another had we not exercised a great deal of discipline.

Those I can not understand, and who I most closely associate with 'evil' are the true sociopaths, who have no apparent conscience at all. There is nothing in nature that explains people like Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy or other sociopaths. I believe that may be why they are so facinating to physchiatrists and physchologists. Thankfully, they are rare but if you are at all spiritually sensitive and you encounter one you will feel their 'evil' as a palpable force.

Hmmm. I wonder if mental illness exists in animals? I s'pose it must. I'll have to call up my wildlife biologist buddy as ask him.

Swanny


Posted by: barddas 03-Nov-2003, 03:29 PM
Nice points made Swanny!

I think many people are of the mindet that we humans are seperate from nature. Instead of being part of nature. And with our technology have lost some of our rituals that came with growing up closer to/with nature. Your example of young people hunting.... good example....
There are no real milestones in a childs life that they are growing towards adulthood... yeah, i guess highschool graduation could be considered... but I mean in the family unit....

But I also believe, everyone has that "rage" inside of them. But have the disapline to control it.... I guess I have heard it referd to as "inner demons" I personally like the theory of the Hulk. LOL! It's in *everyone*......potentially ... it just depends on the amount of psyhcological trauma one endures .....before it comes to the surface... or if it ever surfaces....
And then there are just the wackos ( technical term wink.gif ) like Daulmer, Charlie manson...and so on.... Could be just an overload of certain chemicals in the brain.....

Posted by: McHaggis 04-Nov-2003, 10:24 PM
I agree with the biochemical construct theory. Just a buncha chemicals that can get out of whack and cause problems. Also agree that humans are not much different than the other "natural" critters....just larger prefrontal cortex than most.

Heck, even dolphins aren't all "Flipper-esque!" I've surfed with enough of them so see some pretty rowdy behavior out there. Juvenile dolphins that act like human teenagers terrorizing me just because they can! Like little school yard bullies.....dropping in on me, forcing me off the peak, racing away down the line and then turning on a dime to race back at me and button hook me just cause they can.....leaping out of the water close enough to splash me. Older ones are usually pretty mellow and just cruise on by but sometimes they surf with us or "rainbow" the top of us. Nothing cooler than looking up and seeing 300+ lbs. of dolphin soaring over head......and nothing scarier than hoping their timing is good and they don't land on you.

...and those boyz have pretty big brains! So they know what's up!

So, yeah, back on topic, humans are both good and evil, but the largest percentage of us keep the rage to a minimum because we know that's the right thing to do.

Unfortunately, some don't.

Like Swanny, I've lived in the rurals and the outdoors and have seen nature at its most raw on occasion. so I can relate completely to what he's talking about. Inner city is the same, mostly turf wars and competitive behaviors that aren't channeled in a direction that's beneficial to society at large. Seen the same thing in the surf line-up. Localism in surfing exists and is well documented even in relatively uncrowded conditions, like where I surf now. The cage doesn't have to be completely crowded before one rat bites another rat for infringing on territory.

RON

Posted by: Angel Whitefang (Rider) 18-Nov-2003, 06:35 PM
QUOTE
Maryellen
The title explains most of it: are humans by nature good or evil. if we don't have laws that make us conduct ourselves nicely, then what would happen. Or if religion never existed or found out to be a big sham, what would happen?


Better Yet Maryellen.....what would YOU do if it turned out to be a sham???

angel.gif

Posted by: maryellen 18-Nov-2003, 07:38 PM
censored.gif

Please show respect and appreciation to alternative views posted here. We appreciate your consideration

Posted by: Annabelle 19-Nov-2003, 10:09 PM
I don't believe in RELIGION!

I believe in God, pure and simple...read the book..all of life's answer's are there if you will only open and read for yourself...how many of you that are commenting here have ever read the bible from front to back and understood what you read.
Not learning from a Priest or Rabbi or Minister thru church services, I mean break out the sweat and READ for yourself...
maybe we should all start there...think about it!

A

Posted by: Angel Whitefang (Rider) 20-Nov-2003, 03:18 PM
QUOTE (maryellen @ Nov 18 2003, 08:38 PM)
censored.gif

Please show respect and appreciation to alternative views posted here. We appreciate your consideration

That is what you normally say to me N\Maryellen. I would appreciate the same from you in return.
angel.gif

Posted by: Annabelle 20-Nov-2003, 03:46 PM
Be afraid, yes I'm bbbbbbad to the bone!!!!

Annabelle



Posted by: Raven 20-Nov-2003, 03:49 PM
QUOTE (Angel Whitefang (Rider) @ Nov 18 2003, 07:35 PM)
...if religion ...found out to be a big sham, what would happen?

The original question was a bit broader and to conditional---some of which beg answers that would have to be pure speculation smile.gif that's the trouble with what if's sometimes

I would do nothing different than I am now if religeon proved to be a sham.

peace

Mikel

Posted by: andylucy 20-Nov-2003, 03:52 PM
QUOTE (Annabelle @ Nov 19 2003, 10:09 PM)
...how many of you that are commenting here have ever read the bible from front to back and understood what you read. 
Not learning from a Priest or Rabbi or Minister thru church services, I mean break out the sweat and READ for yourself...

Yep, I've read the bible from table of contents to concordance more times than I can count. Having been raised by a strict Southern Baptist mother, we had Bible drills every night- memorizing verses and such and then reading, sequentially, a chapter or two or three. Every night for 11 years. I've also read the Bible in several translations, and also bulled my way through the original Greek of the New Testament, thanks to a very patient Greek teacher and a lot of skull sweat. I never had the guts to try the Old Testament in Hebrew (something about languages that read right to left that locks my brain up biggrin.gif ). This was all before I converted to Catholicism. Since my conversion, I have read the Catholic Bible through a few more times, emphasizing the books not present in the Protestant version.

But, the original question- are we by nature good or evil?- People talk about the innate moral sense that we are born with. I feel that this is non-existent. I do not believe that humans are born with a moral sense, but develop one over the years, hopefully carefully inculcated by parents and reinforced by society. Otherwise, people seem to tend toward self-gratification, with no thought to the larger group. I see a lot of this in my wife's job as a Juvenile Officer. You don't see very many kids whose parents take an interest in their moral development getting locked up for anything other than having a visit from the "Pot Fairy." (Her term for that marijuana which mysteriously appears in the JV's pockets wink.gif ) Most of the adults im my police department lock-up have little or no moral sense. They do whatever feels good at the moment and to hell with the consequences and their effect on society. When we do get someone in there with a developed moral sense, you can tell because they act totally different from the run-of-the-mill scumbags who parade through.

Well, that is enough ranting for now. I think that I may be a bit jaded, given my line of work, so maybe my judgement isn't the fairest. I'll leave it up to the gentle-readers of this missive to decide.

Just my tuppence.

Andy

Posted by: Annabelle 20-Nov-2003, 04:04 PM
I think Andy and Raven should come to the bar and join me for a round...both of you are using too many brain cells in here today...

Annabelle

Posted by: maryellen 21-Nov-2003, 07:12 PM
I agree andylucy. Many studies also agree with you and came to the same conclusion: we are not born with an innate moral sense. Morals and values are taught. I tried searching for the study online and cannot seem to find it right now sad.gif
This also falls under the heading of pushing "Character Education" in schools. A kind of moral teacher-- which is another seperate debate altogether- should schools teach morals and values?

Posted by: Derfel 29-Nov-2003, 10:40 AM
Nature don´t know "good or evil".
Is a wolf evil, because he killed a rabbit?
Or is a rabbit good because he don´t kill the wolf?

Sláinte beer_mug.gif

Derfel

Posted by: Derfel 29-Nov-2003, 10:45 AM
QUOTE (Annabelle @ Nov 19 2003, 11:09 PM)
I don't believe in RELIGION!

I believe in God, pure and simple...read the book..all of life's answer's are there if you will only open and read for yourself...how many of you that are commenting here have ever read the bible from front to back and understood what you read.
Not learning from a Priest or Rabbi or Minister thru church services, I mean break out the sweat and READ for yourself...
maybe we should all start there...think about it!

A

Even the bible is not the one and only truth.
Is a book, not more and less, written by a lot of men and
censored by a lot of men.
Think about it!

Sláinte! beer_mug.gif

Derfel

Posted by: Raven 29-Nov-2003, 01:29 PM
QUOTE (Derfel @ Nov 29 2003, 11:40 AM)

Or is a rabbit good because he don´t kill the wolf?

Sláinte beer_mug.gif

Derfel

Don't be silly D a rabbit can't kill a wolf ......unless he leads him over a cliff tongue.gif

Peace

Mikel

Posted by: Keltic 29-Nov-2003, 01:35 PM
QUOTE (Raven @ Nov 29 2003, 03:29 PM)

Don't be silly D a rabbit can't kill a wolf ......unless he leads him over a cliff tongue.gif

Yes it can. Have you not seen the one in Monty Python and the Holy Grail?

Posted by: Raven 30-Nov-2003, 02:52 PM
QUOTE (Keltic @ Nov 29 2003, 02:35 PM)
QUOTE (Raven @ Nov 29 2003, 03:29 PM)

Don't be silly D a rabbit can't kill a wolf ......unless he leads him over a cliff tongue.gif

Yes it can. Have you not seen the one in Monty Python and the Holy Grail?

Good point Keltic tongue.gif But you must remember,,,that rabbit was a particualrly viscious brute. (looks about nervously) Just the thought of that one gives me the willies unsure.gif I'd almost forgotten about him and was comfortable with rabbits until you brought it up.

Peace

Mikel

Posted by: Derfel 30-Nov-2003, 06:33 PM
QUOTE (Raven @ Nov 29 2003, 02:29 PM)
QUOTE (Derfel @ Nov 29 2003, 11:40 AM)

Or is a rabbit good because he don´t kill the wolf?

Sláinte  beer_mug.gif

Derfel

Don't be silly D a rabbit can't kill a wolf ......unless he leads him over a cliff tongue.gif

Peace

Mikel

I just don´t say that a rabbit cannot do this. wink.gif

Sláinte! :: beermug

Derfel

Posted by: Raven 04-Dec-2003, 07:47 AM
Another thought... If the wolf does not kill the rabbit is the wolf good or simply not hungry tongue.gif

Slainte beer_mug.gif

Mikel

Posted by: oldraven 04-Dec-2003, 09:00 AM
A wolf will kill a rabbit just to kill it. All pack dogs would, unless they are trained not to kill. Built in Prey Drive. Just like a domestic pack dog can't help but chase a cat, even if it has no intention of eating it. They're designed to do it. Sort of like a really complex reflex.

Was this said already? Haven't been paying attention.

Posted by: Raven 04-Dec-2003, 10:15 AM
Old Raven

I know that rolleyes.gif I was just being facitious biggrin.gif Giving Derfel a hard time

My cat likes to play with mice until they are dead. That's just how Cats play and he certainly never goes hungry. I did say facitious and not facist unsure.gif

Peace

Mikel

Posted by: oldraven 04-Dec-2003, 10:30 AM
Raven, You're a facitist. ohmy.gif I never would have believed it.







tongue.gif

I believe you. I was just trying to sound like I knew something.

Posted by: Raven 04-Dec-2003, 10:49 AM
Old Raven

You are very kind to humor one as Fastidious as myself angel_not.gif

beer_mug.gif
Mikel

Posted by: Annabelle 07-Dec-2003, 10:12 PM
Ok, you have it on record: "I'm Evil"

Happy Now?

Annabelle

Posted by: maisky 12-Dec-2003, 08:43 AM
QUOTE (Annabelle @ Dec 7 2003, 11:12 PM)
Ok, you have it on record: "I'm Evil"

Happy Now?

Annabelle

MY KIND OF WOMAN! Too bad you are too young for me and that I am married. Sigh! biggrin.gif

Posted by: maisky 12-Dec-2003, 08:44 AM
QUOTE (oldraven @ Dec 4 2003, 10:00 AM)
A wolf will kill a rabbit just to kill it. All pack dogs would, unless they are trained not to kill. Built in Prey Drive. Just like a domestic pack dog can't help but chase a cat, even if it has no intention of eating it. They're designed to do it. Sort of like a really complex reflex.

Was this said already? Haven't been paying attention.

THIS is why men chase women!

Posted by: Raven 12-Dec-2003, 10:33 AM
QUOTE (Annabelle @ Dec 7 2003, 11:12 PM)
Ok, you have it on record: "I'm Evil"

Happy Now?

Annabelle

Evil by nature or did you have to work at it????? tongue.gif

Posted by: andylucy 12-Dec-2003, 04:41 PM
QUOTE (maisky @ Dec 12 2003, 08:44 AM)
QUOTE (oldraven @ Dec 4 2003, 10:00 AM)
A wolf will kill a rabbit just to kill it. All pack dogs would, unless they are trained not to kill. Built in Prey Drive. Just like a domestic pack dog can't help but chase a cat, even if it has no intention of eating it. They're designed to do it. Sort of like a really complex reflex.

Was this said already? Haven't been paying attention.

THIS is why men chase women!


Well, my wife has always said that men are just like dogs, just not as furry. wink.gif

Just my tuppence.

Andy

Posted by: JaneyMae 14-Dec-2003, 10:38 AM
Okay, so I'm hearing that ALL men are evil and women are only evil if they work at it bangin.gif ? And rabbits are always the pry of wolves just as men are of women.............. boff.gif ?

Have I gotten this right? goof.gif

Posted by: maisky 14-Dec-2003, 12:58 PM
QUOTE (JaneyMae @ Dec 14 2003, 11:38 AM)
Okay, so I'm hearing that ALL men are evil and women are only evil if they work at it bangin.gif ? And rabbits are always the pry of wolves just as men are of women.............. boff.gif ?

Have I gotten this right? goof.gif

Two of us with the same sort of sense of humor. Be afraid! Be VERY afraid. Bwaa HAAA HAAA! evil.gif jester.gif

Posted by: JaneyMae 14-Dec-2003, 08:22 PM
Maisky, I don't believe I've ever known you to be wrong............I think that's how it goes....or do I have it backwards? blink.gif

Posted by: maisky 26-Dec-2003, 06:56 AM
QUOTE (JaneyMae @ Dec 14 2003, 09:22 PM)
Maisky, I don't believe I've ever known you to be wrong............I think that's how it goes....or do I have it backwards? blink.gif

wink.gif I learned a long time ago that men can't hope to outsmart the ladies. We have to just concentrate on keeping them confused. biggrin.gif

Posted by: JaneyMae 27-Dec-2003, 12:06 AM
Ahhhh, you kill me, Willie. You've wisend with age ;-)

Posted by: maisky 27-Dec-2003, 06:35 AM
QUOTE (JaneyMae @ Dec 27 2003, 01:06 AM)
Ahhhh, you kill me, Willie. You've wisend with age ;-)

If I'm so wise, how come I'm not rich, so we can just go fishing? Ah Well, I must build more fortune in my life. smile.gif

Posted by: maggiemahone1 27-Dec-2003, 06:53 AM
QUOTE (maisky @ Dec 26 2003, 12:56 PM)
wink.gif I learned a long time ago that men can't hope to outsmart the ladies.  We have to just concentrate on keeping them confused.  biggrin.gif

maisky, I thought it was Woman that confused Man. My hubby says I'm like the weather, always changing. biggrin.gif He never knows if I'm gonna be stormy or calm. wink.gif

maggiemahone1

Posted by: JaneyMae 27-Dec-2003, 10:58 AM
QUOTE (maisky @ Dec 27 2003, 06:35 AM)
If I'm so wise, how come I'm not rich, so we can just go fishing? Ah Well, I must build more fortune in my life. smile.gif

Keep up the builing part, sire. While you are at it you need to win the lottery too. cool.gif Let's go fishing in style lol.gif

Posted by: Highlander 02-Jan-2004, 12:04 PM
Just MHO:

Mankind is basically evil, that in my opinion is preposterous. In ancient history going back to the proverbial ?caveman? there was a tendency to congregate into groups, not only for survival but for companionship. This tendency throughout history grew and grew. It grew into Greece, Rome, Egypt, and from there, modern times and ?modern? civilizations.

So if mankind was of a truly evil nature would this have happened? If everyone was evil why would we wish to congregate into a single societal entity? Throughout history and time and time again there have been evil men and women that where alone or in small groups, but they where always the outcastes that society joined together to defeat.

If we are all evil, would we have wished to defeat these outcastes in order to remain safe and secure in our chosen environment? The laws of society today and in the past where instituted to protect us from evil, not from the good, so this ?theory? can only IMHO be classified as BUNK?

Posted by: maisky 16-Jan-2004, 07:32 PM
QUOTE (Highlander @ Jan 2 2004, 01:04 PM)
Just MHO:

Mankind is basically evil, that in my opinion is preposterous. In ancient history going back to the proverbial ?caveman? there was a tendency to congregate into groups, not only for survival but for companionship. This tendency throughout history grew and grew. It grew into Greece, Rome, Egypt, and from there, modern times and ?modern? civilizations.

So if mankind was of a truly evil nature would this have happened? If everyone was evil why would we wish to congregate into a single societal entity? Throughout history and time and time again there have been evil men and women that where alone or in small groups, but they where always the outcastes that society joined together to defeat.

If we are all evil, would we have wished to defeat these outcastes in order to remain safe and secure in our chosen environment? The laws of society today and in the past where instituted to protect us from evil, not from the good, so this ?theory? can only IMHO be classified as BUNK?

Good and evil exist together. This dichotomy is inevitable. What is important is that each of us deal with our own good and evil natures in such a way that we develop the good and resist the evil from within (at least most of the time biggrin.gif )
From a Buddhist perspective, each of us is a potentially an enlightened human being. king.gif The trick is to awaken the Buddha nature and keep the devilish functions at bay. thumbs_up.gif

Posted by: skye 17-Jan-2004, 07:04 AM
Evil and Good is a must for balance in this world of ours. Many learn Evil is around in order to appreciate and or see what Good is.. If there were all good, then theres no example for us to better ourselves to become a better human being.. If we were all bad, well why even try to be good.
Just my humble 2 cents worth smile.gif

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 17-Jan-2004, 04:02 PM
I am a supporter of the "tabula rasa" theory, the mind is blank, we are neither good nor evil at birth but our surroundings shape us.

Posted by: kevsen 24-Jan-2004, 09:52 PM
QUOTE (maryellen @ Oct 20 2003, 04:49 PM)
The title explains most of it: are humans by nature good or evil.  if we don't have laws that make us conduct ourselves nicely, then what would happen.  Or if religion never existed or found out to be a big sham, what would happen?

"Lord of the Flies" by William Golding suggests we are evil by nature.  Its a great book if you haven't read it.

I think Matthew 29:17 explains it:

QUOTE
And he[Jesus] said unto him[the rich, young ruler], Why callest thou me good?  there is none good but one, that is, God....

Posted by: kevsen 24-Jan-2004, 10:04 PM
QUOTE (Derfel @ Nov 29 2003, 11:45 AM)
Even the bible is not the one and only truth.
Is a book, not more and less, written by a lot of men and
censored by a lot of men.
Think about it!

Sláinte!  beer_mug.gif

Derfel

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Jesus seems to be disagreeing with you.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 25-Jan-2004, 10:33 AM
Jesus was disagreeing with alot of people, but it doesn't give him the absolute truth.. I think alot of religions would disagree with that. Muslims see Jesus as a great prophet, Jews as a Rabbi.
Don't you think the truth lies in the eye of the beholder?

Posted by: Raven 26-Jan-2004, 11:37 AM
What ever happened to Mary Ellen?

By the way...I personally am evil by nature unsure.gif

Posted by: kevsen 26-Jan-2004, 11:41 AM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Jan 25 2004, 11:33 AM)
Jesus was disagreeing with alot of people, but it doesn't give him the absolute truth.. I think alot of religions would disagree with that. Muslims see Jesus as a great prophet, Jews as a Rabbi.
Don't you think the truth lies in the eye of the beholder?

No, I utterly reject that the "truth lies in the eyes of the Beholder."

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)

There is absolute truth, and that truth is Christ. To say there is no absolute truth would mean that the Holocaust was not "wrong" in any important sense of the word.

Murder, lying, thievery, adultery, fornication, and the like are all wrong because they are in opposition to the laws that God has put into effect in this world.

Posted by: andylucy 26-Jan-2004, 04:56 PM
QUOTE (Raven @ Jan 26 2004, 11:37 AM)
What ever happened to Mary Ellen?

I have been wondering that myself. I could usually count on her to watch my back during these religious discussions. biggrin.gif

Kevsen, I totally agree with you about relative truth and morality. There has to be an absolute or else, what's the bloody point? Everyone does whatever they please (including rape, murder and the like) because THEY see nothing wrong with it. I have used the term natural moral law here before, and most scoffed and told me that it didn't exist. But it does. Truth and morality doesn't rest with an individual's conscience; it comes from God.

Just my tuppence.

Andy

Posted by: maisky 26-Jan-2004, 05:51 PM
QUOTE (andylucy @ Jan 26 2004, 05:56 PM)
QUOTE (Raven @ Jan 26 2004, 11:37 AM)
What ever happened to Mary Ellen?

I have been wondering that myself. I could usually count on her to watch my back during these religious discussions. biggrin.gif

Kevsen, I totally agree with you about relative truth and morality. There has to be an absolute or else, what's the bloody point? Everyone does whatever they please (including rape, murder and the like) because THEY see nothing wrong with it. I have used the term natural moral law here before, and most scoffed and told me that it didn't exist. But it does. Truth and morality doesn't rest with an individual's conscience; it comes from God.

Just my tuppence.

Andy

Of couse there are other opinions about the source of good and evil. biggrin.gif

Posted by: kevsen 26-Jan-2004, 10:34 PM
QUOTE (andylucy @ Jan 26 2004, 05:56 PM)
QUOTE (Raven @ Jan 26 2004, 11:37 AM)
What ever happened to Mary Ellen?

I have been wondering that myself. I could usually count on her to watch my back during these religious discussions. biggrin.gif

Kevsen, I totally agree with you about relative truth and morality. There has to be an absolute or else, what's the bloody point? Everyone does whatever they please (including rape, murder and the like) because THEY see nothing wrong with it. I have used the term natural moral law here before, and most scoffed and told me that it didn't exist. But it does. Truth and morality doesn't rest with an individual's conscience; it comes from God.

Just my tuppence.

Andy

Thanks for throwing in your tuppence andy, I appreciate it. thumbs_up.gif

Posted by: kevsen 26-Jan-2004, 10:36 PM
QUOTE (maisky @ Jan 26 2004, 06:51 PM)
QUOTE (andylucy @ Jan 26 2004, 05:56 PM)
QUOTE (Raven @ Jan 26 2004, 11:37 AM)
What ever happened to Mary Ellen?

I have been wondering that myself. I could usually count on her to watch my back during these religious discussions. biggrin.gif

Kevsen, I totally agree with you about relative truth and morality. There has to be an absolute or else, what's the bloody point? Everyone does whatever they please (including rape, murder and the like) because THEY see nothing wrong with it. I have used the term natural moral law here before, and most scoffed and told me that it didn't exist. But it does. Truth and morality doesn't rest with an individual's conscience; it comes from God.

Just my tuppence.

Andy

Of couse there are other opinions about the source of good and evil. biggrin.gif

Well, that's true. Most everyone does have an opinion or two on this subject. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 27-Jan-2004, 03:15 PM
somewhere Andy and I had a very interesting discussion on God/Jesus etc...
I leave ppl their oppinions as long as they don't try to preach me that they HAVE to be mine as well..

Posted by: maisky 27-Jan-2004, 04:27 PM
If we have to nominate the source of evil, I vote for JaneyMae and Annabelle. tongue.gif
They were picking on me in the Fishing thread....crybaby.gif

jester.gif

Posted by: Raven 28-Jan-2004, 01:16 PM
QUOTE (maisky @ Jan 27 2004, 05:27 PM)
If we have to nominate the source of evil, I vote for JaneyMae and Annabelle. tongue.gif
They were picking on me in the Fishing thread....crybaby.gif

jester.gif

I will vote for them also and it seems like they work hard at it and are to be commended wink.gif

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 28-Jan-2004, 01:53 PM
*smirks*

Posted by: maisky 28-Jan-2004, 09:55 PM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Jan 28 2004, 02:53 PM)
*smirks*

Maybe I should have added a third name to the "pantheon of Evil"? biggrin.gif

Posted by: JaneyMae 29-Jan-2004, 09:21 AM
QUOTE (maisky @ Jan 27 2004, 04:27 PM)
If we have to nominate the source of evil, I vote for JaneyMae and Annabelle. tongue.gif
They were picking on me in the Fishing thread....crybaby.gif

jester.gif

Hey! Wad up?!?!

Annabelle, Get the feathers! I have the tar!! thumbs_up.gif

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 29-Jan-2004, 02:50 PM
Maisky, if you put me up in a pantheon my lightning throwing brother will grill you ... I AM the Goddess of all thinks bad *smiles sweetly*

Posted by: maisky 29-Jan-2004, 05:25 PM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Jan 29 2004, 03:50 PM)
Maisky, if you put me up in a pantheon my lightning throwing brother will grill you ... I AM the Goddess of all thinks bad *smiles sweetly*

OOPs, my mistake oh Goddess! biggrin.gif

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 30-Jan-2004, 08:33 AM
naa. I don't think I want to be worshipped... worshipping is for all them good deities out there, I want total obedience wink.gif

Posted by: maisky 30-Jan-2004, 10:11 AM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Jan 30 2004, 09:33 AM)
naa. I don't think I want to be worshipped... worshipping is for all them good deities out there, I want total obedience wink.gif

Whatever you say, Mistress AON. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 30-Jan-2004, 12:02 PM
wrong title wink.gif

Posted by: maisky 04-Feb-2004, 06:26 PM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Jan 30 2004, 01:02 PM)
wrong title wink.gif

What title should I use, mistress? (grovel) biggrin.gif

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 05-Feb-2004, 01:11 PM
stop groveling, fool. I don't punish, punishment is an act of kindness (leading ppl back on the right way)...

I'm pretty lax with my titles actually ... and *censored* *censored* this washingmachine is *censored* blowing my ears off!

Posted by: rock_serenade 01-Mar-2004, 11:29 PM
I feel we are born ignorant, life is to teach us good, "evil" is simply the lack of understanding and exposure to good. I know many feel this is a rather shallow goody goody attitude that would be dropped by the first major trauma in a persons life, however I feel if taken into a deeper consideration..its far truer than a simple statement than that of we are born evil and die much the same.

Posted by: maisky 07-Mar-2004, 10:24 AM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Feb 5 2004, 02:11 PM)
stop groveling, fool. I don't punish, punishment is an act of kindness (leading ppl back on the right way)...

I'm pretty lax with my titles actually ... and *censored* *censored* this washingmachine is *censored* blowing my ears off!

You are so CRUEL!!!! rolleyes.gif

Posted by: sylvanus 16-Mar-2004, 11:42 PM
Well... humans were created good by nature... "very good" in fact. But by seeking to be "as gods," we rejected our proper position... The result is we have a degree of innate moral sense, but our nature is evil - fallen from perfection...

We suppress the truth "since what may be known about God is plain to [us]... For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that [we] are without excuse. For although [we] knew God, [we] neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but [our] thinking became futile and [our] foolish hearts were darkened. Although [we] claimed to be wise, [we] became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. [We] exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worship and serve created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised."

Posted by: kelaorqu 17-Mar-2004, 10:12 PM
I guess if you really want the answer to whether we are by nature good or evil you just have to look at the century that passed. Marx thought that humans could be perfect and live in harmony if given the proper circumstances... But just look what Communism brought - bloodshed, supression, persecution, and torture. Not very good if you ask me! Human's are sinful from the time they are born. You don't have to teach a child to be selfish or greedy but you do have to teach them to share and be kind.

Posted by: maisky 24-Apr-2004, 01:04 PM
QUOTE (kelaorqu @ Mar 17 2004, 11:12 PM)
bloodshed, supression, persecution, and torture. Not very good if you ask me! 

And that's just in Texas!

Good thoughts, clearly expressed!

Posted by: Camchak 04-Jul-2004, 02:44 PM
We are by nature evil or bad. What is one of the first things you teach a child? The meaning of the word no! You did not teach them to do wrong, but you will teach them the difference between right and wrong.

Posted by: maisky 04-Jul-2004, 04:31 PM
We are all POTENTIALLY good. It is up to each of us to manifest that. thumbs_up.gif

Posted by: Camchak 04-Jul-2004, 07:48 PM
The best we can do is filthy rags before him........ angel_not.gif

Posted by: maisky 18-Jul-2004, 11:14 AM
QUOTE (Camchak @ 04-Jul-2004, 08:48 PM)
The best we can do is filthy rags before him........ angel_not.gif

If you are Buddhist, like I am, that simply doesn't fly. It is up to each of us to manifest our potential......or not. biggrin.gif angel_not.gif

Posted by: behan 18-Jul-2004, 11:34 AM
I do NOT belive in good or evil

Posted by: freekenny 24-Jul-2004, 11:33 PM
O'siyo,
I believe that one can be born with a 'genetic disposition'/'lack of something in the brain' that could cause us to develop into an evil person..I also know that a perfectly 'normal' individual could be born and develop into something 'evil'~ I believe that the main factor, environment, will play a key role in what we become as we develop into adults~ Some believe that we are born innocent and pure of heart..I believe with the first breath we take once we enter 'the world' we are already being conditioned to evil..after all we are 'fighting' to take that first breath, 'fighting' for life~ I believe it is up to the individual and their 'views' on the world what it is they will become..evil or good~
~~Sty-U red_bandana.gif

Posted by: sorbus 09-Aug-2005, 02:43 AM
THe Nature of Man is a a matter of Potentialities
We contain The Potential
To be The Light of The World or It`s Darkness
Life is about Freewill
We are The Captains of Our Own Destinies cool.gif

Posted by: CelticCoalition 09-Aug-2005, 09:51 AM
I do not believe that people are inherintly either good or evil. Good and evil, IMO, are not real. They are made up ideas that humans use to categorize things. For example, stealing is usually considered more evil then good. But what if the theif is stealing food for his starving family? Who is evil then? The thief, or the society that forced him into poverty, or the man for allowing himself to become poor?

Good or evil is a subjective thing. It depends on your point of view on who is good or evil, and what actions are good or evil.

People are naturally neither good nor evil, just as animals are neither. We are born neutral. Then, based on our environment, or biology, and our psyche we are molded into one or the other, based on what our society deems as good or evil.

I mean, to many a canibal would be evil, but there are some cultures where canibalism was common practice. There is no black and white set definition of good and evil, it's all grey.

Posted by: stoirmeil 09-Aug-2005, 12:27 PM
Oh, I love this conversation. smile.gif This takes me way back to college and the incense and the Santana Abraxas and the big jug of Yago Sangria going around. I don't feel quite the same way about it now, though, if you were to ask me point blank.

When it comes to humans, the name of the game is "dirty data," meaning potentially infinite variation from the innermost circle of brain, outward to individual personality (which can't even be formed without contact outside itself), and outward again to family, then community, then society. Every factor can confound every other factor, when you try to single out any particular thing to impute behavioural causation to.

If you have no truck with either evolution or the fact that it is for the most part other people that make people into what they are, stop reading here, pass GO immediately and collect your $200, with my blessings. tongue.gif

I think I agree with CC most, on principle, except for one thing. People are not born completely neutral, although we certainly do have to socialize them for years and years away from just gratifying their body-driven impulses like any other healthy animal. But we have also evolved, in the curly gray stuff up front in the brain, apparent rudiments of right and wrong as well, that don't seem to have to be taught. It actually appears to run on empathy, which begins as the ability to recognize the pain or pleasure of others and react to it in a whole range of different ways, that even teeny teeny kids show toward each other, never having been taught. This is so natural and spontaneous that a kid who truly has no wiring for it is thought to be somewhere in the autistic range.

This is immensely complicated by the social patterns of the people the child was born to. The brain in an infant is literally being built, circuit by circuit, by contact with people and the environment. The brain checks in at birth READY for wiring; certain very basic things things like sucking, grasping, and preferring to look at faces are hard-wired, and others are just dedicated areas ready to be wired.

So we continue to wire each other interactionally all our lives. To the extent we are aware of what we are doing or not, and our intentions are internally (self or in-group) or externally (other or out-group) oriented, and then preservative or destructive (for whatever jillion complex internal and environmental reaons), I think we ourselves are all the potential good or evil we need to worry about. And if we forget or deny that, that's when we get into the really destructive quagmires and impasses, not to mention spurious self-justification of atrocious behaviour.

Do we want to get it off ourselves and project it onto some personified external Shadow of some kind? Hell yeah. From that we create everything from our childhood rival to our personal enemy to Satan (which means "enemy" anyway).

"We" is of course a function of the group we belong to, and we inherit our values and attitudes socially. I think the majority of people never get to the point where they can buck the system that made them, or even see the need to. That cohesive inertia can be the source of either "good" or "evil", or complicated mixes of preservative, constructive, and destructive behaviours all at the same time.

I think believing humans to be motivated to act (never mind intrinsically BE) simply good or evil is wishful thinking, seeking for a simplicity which is just not there in our species. We are a glorious mess, with all our own potential for anything in the range of what we think of as good or evil, without any help from outside.

Posted by: sorbus 10-Aug-2005, 08:19 AM
Where is The Head of Bran of The Bless-ed When You Need Clarity laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif cool.gif

Posted by: Raven 30-Oct-2005, 08:52 AM
QUOTE (CelticCoalition @ 09-Aug-2005, 10:51 AM)
I do not believe that people are inherintly either good or evil. Good and evil, IMO, are not real. They are made up ideas that humans use to categorize things. For example, stealing is usually considered more evil then good. But what if the theif is stealing food for his starving family? Who is evil then? The thief, or the society that forced him into poverty, or the man for allowing himself to become poor?

Good or evil is a subjective thing. It depends on your point of view on who is good or evil, and what actions are good or evil.of good and evil, it's all grey.

I have been watching this thread for sometime now and finally decided to weigh in.

Just using this particular post as an example.(nothing personal CC) With this kind of reasoning, sure there is no good and evil. ( i.e. It depends upon your point of view)

Circumstances can often dictate what is good or what is evil (i.e. the example of the starving man stealing to feed his family)
What about the man who is not starving but would rather steal than get a job.
What about the man who breaks into a familys home (who had been paying him to work arround their house) while they are sleeping then beats the husband to death with a brick leaving the wife without her major income provider and him without his source of employment, so that he can rob them.
What about the man that robs the convenience store then shoots the cashier to leave no witnesses(robbing this family of their provider as well) over a few dollars in the drawer that he could have had without killing the man. (these examples happened in my neighborhood this last week) I'm sure that both of these people rationalized to them selves that this was ok, but that doesn't change anything.

What about Joeseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, I'm sure that from their point of view they were not evil but it was instead anyone who opposed them that was evil.

If Genocide is part of your culture is it therefor not evil?

Sure some things will fall into a gray area and depending upon the situation some actions become necessary.

And depending on your culture some things may be acceptable that would not be acceptable elsewhere. But at some point you must draw a line and say, this is good or this is evil. (I think that is what the UN is supposed to be doing unsure.gif )

So to say that there is no good or evil or to say it depends on your perspective is obvious and begs the question.

The topic of this thread: ARe we by nature good or evil

Evil is such a harsh word wink.gif

As children we had to be taught to do good, no one ever had to teach us to do bad we just do it. Part of this is learning the difference and what has been so aptly stated that some are predisposed to do evil would come into play here.

Peace, Goodwill and nice thoughts to all you non-evil people on this board tongue.gif and to you that do not believe there is such a thing as well wink.gif

Mikel

Posted by: le pwner 08-Apr-2006, 04:59 PM
wink.gif You said something of circumstance. I say perception of circumstance. However your mind is wired causes you to perceive something as good or evil. Not that anything is wholly good or evil, because you don't know the thoughts, purposes or intentions behind it. Maybe people never believe that they actually are or are doing good or evil, because they can justify it to themselves. Without that justification, I think one could not live. One who does to someone something that the victim or onlooker may consider evil, the perpetrator may not consider it good, but they also may not consider it evil, rather it is both. How can you consider something wholly evil or likewise wholly good? If someone committed a crime, say killing someone, then you might consider it evil, but what about the side-effects? By killing that person someone else may later not be sued (mind you this is just an example), so that had one positive effect. Conversely, if one gives money to charity, this is normally considered good, the money may have been better spent elsewhere. Just something to think on; perceptions and the like. wink.gif

Posted by: John Clements 16-Dec-2007, 02:23 PM
Wow, great stuff. My thinking is that we all come into this world with a clean slate, (all healthy I hope) and what we become depends on the values of who raised us, and the social environment that we are raised in.
Don’t you just love the expression? We did it for there own good. Its sort like saying, were going to have piece, even if I have to kill you to get it! Some things just can’t be justified.

Peace and love,
JC

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