Who Wrote The Bible?, and other ramblings

Wow! I didn't realize that "JW's" didn't celebrate their birthdays, although the bible doesn't actually recant the event as being wrong to celebrate. I can see their reasoning, but I can't agree with it. I think birthdays are a wonderful time to celebrate life, especially spiritual birthdays. I cannot recall the date I became a Christian, so I just celebrate all the time.

As to the church being in ignorance concerning cults, I agree that this is the case. But I have often felt resistant to learn about them for fear of understanding too much. It's choosing ignorance and discernment and believe it or not I don't know which to choose.

You're entitled to your beliefs and opinion. Can I add my own thoughts though? PUHLEASE???? So yeah Christmas isn't in the bible, but it is a Christain holiday. It is celebrating the birth of Christ our Lord. Mass is defined as the celebration of the Eucharist (for Roman Catholics and some Protestants). The mass is celebrating the death and life of Christ, so Christmas is called Christmas cause it is celebrating the birth of Christ. Does that make any sense? so yaeh it's not in the bible but I believe it is a real holiday and a real moment in history so that's why I don't change the name even though there isn't biblical reference to it. That's my two cents. Thanx!

Ahhh, christmas original wasn't a christian holiday....

It derived from pagan roots!

Just curious,

Are there any original Christain holidays?

Whatever the reason for choosing a specific date to celebrate one thing or another - be it Christain or not, why would the date matter more than what is being celebrated?

If we want to celebrate something, and we want others to join us, don't we usually set a designated time?


Anne

Well I think theres no boundries in religion, they mix and such. Hence the dates would do the same

Good point. I don't think it really matters when you celebrate Christmas.

If you want a real history on the Christmas tradition, I suggest "The Battle for Christmas" by Stephen Nissenbaum. I had read several chapters for my US History I class. It details many primary sources on the origin of Christmas tradition throughout Europe and then the United States. The link below is to Amazon.com. It lets you read inside the book for anyone interested.

In response to our their any original Christian holidays... I would think that any holiday that celebrates Jesus Christ is original. Not that the dates and extras are. But the focus is definitely original. It is how you celebrate. Such as, my friends sing and make a birthday cake for Jesus on His birthday. I think scholars estimated the real date as the end of September, maybe.


The Battle for Christmas

"Original Christian holidays"?

This is my belief, it I take the word in a literal sense "Holy days" and ask the question, are there any holy days under the new Covenant? I would say yes! The fourth commandment and Genesis 2 makes it clear to me that God regards the seventh day as holy. He "sanctified" it Himself.

This is a weekly holiday we've been given, a day of rest, and the only holiday that I believe the Bible gives us.

I love holidays and days of celebration, and we can have lots of reasons to celebrate (birthdays, hogmanay, Mothers Day, St.Andrews Day, national Tartan day, St.Patricks Day - to name a few) but these are just worldly days, fun, and not truly holy to God.

For a partial answer to this question check out the first few pages of the "is the bible accurate" thread in philosophy and discussion. We wandered onto this topic for a few pages, unfortunatly i cant remember which pages but it was near the beginning.

As has already been quoted 2timothy 3:16 says, "...given by inspiration of God..."
The greak word means to literaly breath. One of the scientific terms for breathing is inspiration - to breath in- I quoted the King James version I believe many modern translations say "all scripture is God breathed" I wont go into great details about supposed inconsistencies in the Bible. We covered some of them in the other post I already mentioned.

is this now considered off topic or on topic?

not sure, but I agree 101% with what you say, spot on!

Yup, Thanksgiving. Even though nowadays Thanksgiving is mostly secular, it was originally celebrated in Plymoth to thank God for saving the pilgrims from near certain death. I know every elementary school has the "First Thanksgiving" play with Squanto and the pilgrims and everyone gathered around the long table with the turkey, but that doesn't have a lot to do with how the holiday was really started. Here's an article that tells it a lot better than I can.

The two major Christian holidays, Christmas and Easter, are made up of almost completely Pagan traditions, with the exception of the Mass itself. For that reason, I find it somewhat amusing that abbreviating Christmas to Xmas causes offense, especially since the abbreviation has been in use since long before anyone would have thought of, or dared to for fear of heresy, trivialize the holiday (sometime in the 1500's).

But then again, all this doesn't mean a thing. Each person who celebrates a holiday knows in their heart why they celebrate, be it to gather with family and friends, welcome the reincarnation of the Sun God, or celebrate the birth of their savior. That's all that matters.

Heather

I have a thing or two I'd like to say on this subject, but these are ONLY my opinions and are not intended to offend anyone.

Objections have been rasied to the date that Christmas is celebrated on because of its pagan ties. But there has to be a line here. Pagans used drums in their ceremonies. Does that mean we can't use drums in our services?? No. It is not the instrument that is in question but the use it is put to. Sure the date Christmas occurs on was a pagan holiday. However, there are LOTS of pagan holidays! If you looked at every non-Christian religion in the world and the dates their holidays occur on, and chose to disqualify dates simply because a pagan holiday occurred on that particular date, we'd never be able to celebrate ANYTHING! Even Easter occurs on a pagan holiday, the spring solstice. The name of Easter is pagan, coming from the name of the pagan goddess Ishtar. So by this logic, we need to choose a new date for Easter and change its name!

Personally, I would celebrate Christmas whether or not there were an official holiday! No, the Bible does not command us to celebrate His birth, but without His birth there would have been no death! I celebrate Christmas becasue it symbolically represents the day that my God chose to wrap Himself in feeble human flesh and come to live amongst His creations so that we could have a chance at eternal life! I choose to celebrate every aspect of my Savior's life, from the moment of His conception to His death to the day of His ascension! I personally thank God every day for sending His Son to Earth, so for me each and every day is Christmas! And Easter! No, we really don't know what day He was born on, or the day He died for that matter, but by choosing a symbolic day, a day to stand in for the actual date, attention is brought world-wide to what He did for us. And, hey, if even one non-believer is brought to a relationship God simply because he happened to ask someone "What is Christmas all about?" then doesn't that make it all worthwhile? It does in my opinion!

I love my God. He did for me what none other could or would do! He chose to live for no other reason than to die for me. How can I NOT celebrate His birth?

As I said at the beginning, this was not intended to be confrontational or to offend anyone, I am only addressing a question that was brought up on this thread and voicing my own personal opinion. However, now that I look at the title of this topic, I realize that this ENTIRE POST has been off topic! I think I'll go crawl back under my rock now!

Like I said, you are free to decide what any given holiday means to you, and that's perfectly fine. That's exactly what the Bishops did centuries ago when they decided to celebrate Christ's birth near the winter solstice and the resurrection near the spring equinox. These were already holidays by the non-Christian folk, so they just decided to change the meaning around a bit. Instead of the winter solstice being a celebration of the literal return of light to the world, they decided that they would celebrate the figurative birth of light in Jesus Christ. Instead of easter being a time to celebrate life and growing and fertility, they would celebrate the resurrection.

What puzzles me is the customs that go along with the holidays that a lot of Christians practice without really thinking about why they exist. The Christmas tree, for example. What does bringing in a tree have to do with Christ's birth? Was Jesus exceptionally fond of indoor potted plants? Same thing goes for the Yule log. I realize that wood was probably a common source of heat in biblical times, but there's nothing about it that specifically pertains to Christ's birth. For one, everyone would have lit a log if it were cold, and if Jesus was born in the summer like a lot of theologians think he was, they wouldn't have had one lit at all. And don't even try to convince me that Mary and Joseph had a piece of mistletoe hanging in the stable.

Easter is steeped in Pagan customs too. The Easter bunny? Now there's a symbol of fertility if I ever saw one. Coloring eggs? I can't even begin to think of a connection between colored hard boiled eggs and crucifixion. The egg hunts, the candy, the pastel EVERYTHING has more to do with the changing colors of the earth than anything Christian.

So the thing I am curious about is not why Christians celebrate a holiday that has Pagan roots, but why they practice uniquely Pagan customs.

HeatherMarie, I share your questions about these things.
I don't judge Christians who have not stopped to consider these matters, nor those who have and decided it's not an issue.

We are all growing at different rates and it is God Who gives wisdom when we are ready for it.

Since my path has been from paganism to Christ, I've been more sensitive than some to avoid pagan practices.
The Word says "learn not the way of the heathen", we are to "come out and be seperate" (while being salt and light).

I have many friends who cry at this time of year "Put Christ back into Christmass", for "me and my house", I say 'leave Him out, He was never there in the first place'.

I take Wizardofowls point about His birth coming before His death, (you don't offend me at all brother) but I do question the need to celebrate something that we are not commanded to do.
For Israel, it was life or death to make sure they carefully followed God's instructions with celebrations. The OT tells us of the great detail in the temple, the ark, the most Holy place, even the garments of the priests.

For us under the new covenant it still says one thing to me, God means what He says and calls for our obedience, not to decide for ourselves as to what is a Holy Day or not.

That portfolio belongs to God.

So I see it as an obedience thing, but we must all be convinced in our own minds.

Hi Tassie!

I'm glad I didn't offend you! But I just had one other thing to add - Nowhere in the New Testament are we commanded to fast, yet many do. Nowhere in the NT are we commanded to continue to observe the Jewish dietary restrictions, yet many do. Nowhere in the NT are we told to use the shofar in our services, yet this is becoming increasingly common today.

You are correct in saying that we are not commanded to observe His birthday, yet the other side of the same coin is that nowhere are we commanded NOT to do so! In my opinion that moves it out of the realm of the ordained and the forbidden and into the realm of choice and personal conviction.

If something brings Him glory in the eyes of men, and is done from an honest and sincere heart, I don't think He objects. He delighted in the comment the woman made when she said "Yet the dogs eat of the crumbs that fall from the Master's table." It wasn't expected, and it went against Jewish tradition, yet He honored her request because of it! I believe that sometimes God LIKES when we do things in honor of Him that we do because we want to and not because we HAVE to! How many times did the Psalmist say "I will sing a new song"? He wasn't commanded to sing that new song - he did it out of reverence for the King. There was so much joy in his heart that he wanted to give something to the Lord above and beyond that which was called for. The woman who broke the incense jar over Jesus' head wasn't commanded to do so, yet He honored her for doing it!

And that is the way I feel about Christmas. No I'm not commanded to do it. But there is just so much joy and appreciation in my heart for what He CHOSE to do for me, that I feel the need to celebrate His birth. We MUST remember the circumstances of His birth, for it is this that reminds us that He was indeed flesh as much as God. If we forget that, then we have lost the entire point of what He did. He could have chosen to come as that conquering King Israel expected, but if He had, I never would have had a chance. Because He chose to come as a helpless baby lying in a mange,r I now have a chance that otherwise would have been denied me. How can I NOT celebrate?

God bless you, my brother!

Fasting:
Jesus, when instructing His disciples said "WHEN ye fast...." Matt 16:16, this assumes that they did already fast and would continue to.

also Mat 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Diet: (Jewish dietary laws)
from a health viewpoint, the wisdom of those laws still applies, the spiritual condemnation was lifted.
I could debate this one, but this is not the time.

the Shofar:
don't have one of those, what are they?

Arguement from silence.....murky theological waters there brother

Perhaps, but we are cautioned thus: Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

and from your next post.... (hope you don't feel I'm playing biblical 'tabletennis', just answering and quickly as I can, I'm supposed to be working!!

Don't need to, we already have an accurate date and name for the time of the Lord's supper. Jesus gave us the passover time, not in the way the Jews keep it, but in the way and at the time (annually) that Jesus exampled.

..but for His birthday we have no accurate date, nor any command or instruction, not by the Lord or His disciples....nothing!

but as I say, it's before God we all stand or fall, this is an interesting and importantant discussion, but not, not , not.. a salvation issue!