Will Canadian Infant Die According To Death, panel wishes?

http://news.ca.msn.com/canada/cp-article.a...mentid=27767786


I have been following the saga of this infant and his family as this is where we will go if govt health care is allowed to continue here!

Call it what you will but a panel of govt employees may well decide this child's fate. They operate under the name of "Office of the Public Guardian and Trustee." It is a genteel sounding office but in fact it is a "death Panel."

A Detroit hospital has now agreed to do a tracheotomy so the infant can breathe on his own and to do it at no charge to the Canadian govt or the parents. It is my understanding that the US facility will provide care for the infant until he is stable and we here will foot the bill through higher insurance cost in the end. I do not oppose that outcome. They are fortunate that we have a capitalist medical system or the US would not be there for them.

I pray that the parents will be able to take the child home to face his destiny surounded by the love of his parents.

Slàinte,    

Patch    

Childrens Hospital is a charitable hospital that always has and always will treat patients regardless of their ability to pay. They operate on not only the patient bills that are paid by insurance but also by many, many charitable donations. They do not raise their rates based on the amount of non-paying patients they have.

I want to make that absolutely clear as I not only live within the suburban Detroit area, but have also had dealings with that hospital for my own children and those of friends.

As to the boy's medical state, since we do not know all of the facts, I can only comment on the fact that if he is in fact, vegetative, that designation is made when there is no longer sufficient brain activity to indicate life. The child is only breathing by the help of a machine and at this point, from reading the article, is already brain dead.

Removing the vent only disconnects it from the trach tube. That remains in place so the child would not choke. He would stop breathing. These parents in this case are keeping their child alive for them, not for the child.

I generally tend to agree with most of what you post but having been involved in these situations working in a stepdown from the ICU, I have seen many families refuse to accept that their loved one is gone and nothing they do will bring that person back. They refuse to allow the natural order of things to progress because of that and would rather keep a lifeless shell alive by artificial means as a comfort to them which is a selfish thing to do, not only for them, but also for the additional man hours, medical costs and insurance premiums that are incurred.

In this instance, this family needs to let their son go. Period.

I agree that life should not be prolonged at all cost and have taken steps to assure that in my case it will not happen. That said, there some troubling facts in this case.

The infant had a sibling who died of the same condition some time earlier. In brain death both the heart and lungs are "usually" being assisted to maintain life. Video feed shows the infant blinking and his eyes do not look lifeless. I will explain the latter if you are interested. The parents know the course of the ailment and the outcome. Nothing so far has indicated that the parents expect to keep the child alive forever. The only life sustaining "equipment" would seem to be the feeding tube and the liquid. When the child looses brain stem function, the respiration and heart will stop and natural death will occur.

If the Detroit hospital does not pass on unpaid expenses, I hail them. I donate to the Cleveland Clinic foundation and believe people should consider this practice if they are able to do so. In view of your information, I will consider adding them to my list of charities.

I have since heard on the news that if the US hospital is allowed to treat the infant, they will provide the surgical procedure and an oxygen concentrator/related equipment should it be needed later. No mention of a respirator to breathe for the child. It seems that there is a high likelihood that the boy will breathe on his own for some time to come. Since the ailment is degenerative, he will eventually die as his sister did. He should be allowed to die with his family at home since that is their wish. I believe the majority of us would prefer to do the same.

I strongly believe that the "Office of the Public Guardian and Trustee" should have no power to force the parents to submit to the govt's will.

Any time govt takes an interest in ending life, there is grave danger of slipping into genocide. Add in an economic crisis and the danger grows. Even recent history shows how easily this can happen. I understand the sister died at home and now the son is not to be allowed the same. Why I wonder???? About all that is left is the cost of the liquid for the feeding tube and maybe antibiotic from time to time. I know that the Canadian HC system is experiencing financial difficulty but the infants care should be minimal in cost to the system. Quite possibly the Detroit hospital will cover it all anyway.

A number of my Canadian friends have met the "Office of the Public Guardian and Trustee", and are no longer with us. Several would probably not have survived though some died based on the cost of the condition and age. I suspect that as years pass there will be more as we are all growing older!

I believe that all of us should have the right to choose life or death without govt interference. If you choose life when no hope exists and death is eminent, you probably should be able to provide for the cost of life support. Possibly one should also pay the cost of assisted suicide.

I will watch the developments in this matter closely as it may well be as harbinger of things to come here.

Slàinte,    

Patch    

The Detroit hispital has now decided not to intervene. I woiuld like to know what was behind that.

Slàinte,    

Patch    

No, I don't need an explanation. As I said, I've worked with many patients in the past who no longer have enough brain function to sustain life. Many times, the brain no longer functions but the body refuses to let go. Also, quite often with cases where the brain is beyond sustaining, there are many involuntary nerve reactions which occur simply because of the enzymes that build up due to the heroic measures being administered. I can't tell, nor would I want to make the assumption, that this boys are or are not lifeless based on a video. I'm not standing in front of him assessing him so I cannot say.

I can say that when delivering bodies to the morgue, I have seen them sit up. That is quite the experience.

However, now knowing that they had a child who has already died from this same disease makes me even angrier that they did not put any measures in place prior to their son's eminent failure to thrive. They really have no one but themselves to blame at this point and though my heart grieves for them and their son's coming demise, I have much less sympathy for their situation than I did prior to learning that. They knew what their possibilities were when they went through this with the younger one.

As to the boy breathing on his own for some time, I've also had patients who have been disconnected from the vent and lived for several days, while their lungs slowly but inevitably stopped. There has been no choking involved.

My concern would be more could the boy survive the move. Quite often, they don't. Will the parents then blame the transporters for their son's death? **Edited to add: perhaps Children's took the possibility that he would not survive the move into account and decided against getting involved for the reason I mentioned here. Who would the parents blame for that?**

There are too many things in this case we do not know and though I don't agree with TPTB, I don't know enough to take a solid stand one way or the other.

My point of my original post was to commend Children's hospital for their stellar practices. No hospital is perfect, but Children's comes fairly close.

There is a big difference between a "persistent vegetative state", where life can sustain it's self and brain death where respiratory and cardiac functions must be supported.

I had two friends in as many years who experienced brain death and were maintained on life support for a few days. I have had a number of friends and family who who for one reason or another were in a "persistent vegetative state" and were able to sustain life till another complication took them.

This infant suffers from a degenerative brain condition which "will" result in brain death. If his parents believed in assisted suicide (which can take many forms) they would have chosen that. They did not and they, not the Canadian govt, should make the choice.

Since the 40's I have observed our family tradition of passing in the home where possible. (only three have not) I helped care for family members at home in several instances.

No bureaucrat on the govt pay roll will decide when life will end for me or my family. Most are political parasites period!

With a quality HD TV one can see the spark that is life in the eyes of those depicted on TV.

We are fortunate to have quality hospitals in this country though with obama care that may no longer be the case.

I understand that the parents are continuing their fight.

Slàinte,    

Patch    

How sad! Yet there is more hope than we could ever imagine in the worst of circumstances.

Since I can't afford a quality HD TV or the accompanying monthly charges to support it in my area, I cannot comment on any spark one might see. Like I said, I can only comment on my own experience caring for patients in varying degrees of death during my employment at hospital. And unfortunately, I have seen many, many selfish families try to hold on to a loved one that should have been let go days or even a month before. I've also had loved ones ask if I can end the patient's suffering early, which I cannot do.

Also unfortunately, none of us are involved in the intricate workings of this case. We have no behind the scenes information, the patient's records have not been made public, so I am sure there are several things none of us are aware of. At this point, anything anyone does who is not immediately involved is pure speculation.

As I said before, I grieve for this family and their eminent loss. But not knowing all the facts, I cannot condone or condemn either way.

WallaceGal,

While it may be true that it is "selfish" for the families to hold on past the end of life, but that is something that needs to be decided with their own conscious, other family members, and God; it's not something the "gubermint" needs to stick its nose into with a commission, board, Czar, or whatever. I believe that is what patch is saying and I have to agree with him.

That is my opinion. I find nothing indicating the parents want to prolong this child's life at all cost and they did not do that with his sister who suffered the same condition. She lived about 6 months in the home and this boy can be expected to do the same.

In spite of what you hear from Canadians I am personally aware of some horror stories. The Tea Party has ads made by a couple of widows speaking to the Canadian HC system and we have several more who are scheduled to do the same.

Government should NEVER be in charge of end of life decisions.

As for the HD TV, mine is but a 30 inch which I bought at a pre Christmas sale several years ago when my 15 year old TV quit working. I had to get cable to get programing as I am over 35 mi away from any TV transmitter. HD only cost $6.00 a month more. Since I do not smoker or drink or party, that is my entertainment and a source of breaking news.

Slàinte,   

 Patch    

This morning's video news indicated that the matter is still being negotiated and unfortunately the hospital employees(some anyway) are receiving death threats which is unfortunate in view of what the parents are trying to accomplish. Since long distance calls are easy to trace, I suspect they will soon know who is doing this unless the calls are coming from within the Canadian community where these events are unfolding.

Hospitals here and possibly even in Canada have agreed to perform the procedure and air ambulance service will be provided at no charge. As the media coverage continues, offers flood in.

It seems that this has become a struggle between govt power and parental rights. Who knows, our govt may even offer the family entry status as "politically persecuted refugees". I say that tongue in cheek but stranger things have happened.

Slàinte,    

Patch    

The Canadian hospital at the center of the controversy over the terminal infant, has just agreed to alow the child go die at home with his family. No further details were provided.

In spite of it's shortcomings, the press can, at times, work wonders!

Slàinte,    

Patch    

The details of the hospitals concession are still tantamount to murder. The canadian hospital will transport the infant home, remove the respirator and leave. It is but a slap in the face to the parents. Now that that the media has this information the furor will begin again.

I have contacted the "Terri Schiavo" foundation to find who the facilities are in the US that offered to take the infant and prepare him to go home.

The canadian system is heartless and quite possibly driven by the bottom line as they are cutting other services too. It would explain why the sister was dealt with differently 8 years ago. Those were economic boom times.

I suspect this incident is not over yet and this may be a great help in dismantling the fiasco known as obama care in this country over the next two and a half years.

You here in the US are getting a peek at the future of health care here if obama care is not dismantled or defunded.

Slàinte,    

Patch    

I think your analysis of this situation is distorted by your political predispositions. What you neglected to mention was that the decision to send the child home and remove life support was made by a court of law. They had their day in court, where arguments were heard and a decision made.

I don't quite understand is how the decision of a location of an inevitable death is tantamount to murder. The family are not doctors and the court consulted outside medical experts in addition to those affiliated with the Ontario Consent and Capacity Board, who you call a "death panel".

To what extent is a hospital responsible to keep this terminally ill child alive? If the child is allowed to go home and die in the arms of his family, why is that murder? While the parent's reluctance to accept the inevitable death of their child is understandable, its not up to the hospital to provide perpetual care until such a psychological transition is made is it?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/stor...d168f9874d891,1

I think you're aware that every hospital is driven by the bottom line, its no secret. As to whether this case has any effect on the future of the US healthcare bill, I think your proposition is overstated.

Again, you have missed the entire point! The daughter was given a trach and sent home to die 8 years ago. She lived 6 months.

No one expects the hospital to keep the child alive. Or even to perform services at the expense of canadian taxpayers. Three medical facilities in the US have agreed to perform the basic service to allow the child to return home and have some short period of time to be a family. The Terri Schiavo foundation has made the arrangements and there would be no cost including transportation.

This is a mater for the family, not for any government or court of law. Outside doctors have been consulted and their opinion is not in agreement with the death panel.

To deliver the child to the home, jerk the respirator off and leave is murder.

Sadly, this will be of great benefit to us in defeating obama should he decide to run for a second term. We have to date produced a number of 30 and 45 second ads featuring people who lost family to the canadian death squads and saw fit to move to the US. We will include any others who are willing to participate.