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> Deism/Deists
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Camac
Posted: 15-Mar-2010, 04:35 PM
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I answered a posting by Patch and stated that if Americans were indeed returning to the beliefs of their Founders that would be good especially if they followed men like, Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Paine and others. You see they were Deists. They belived that a Supreme Being created the Universe but after doing so washed his hands and said now get on with it and don't bother me. They doubted the Divinity of Christ and were extremly skeptical about miracles and Heavenly intervention. They believed that the Natural World could be best understood through Knowlege and Reason not through Faith and organized Religion. I am not a Deist but a Pantheist, I belive that The Universe is the Creator and The Creator is the Universe" (look up to the starry sky and behold the Face of that Creator)
One of our fellow posters suggested that I might have broached a subject worth debate. If so let the words flow.



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oldraven 
Posted: 15-Mar-2010, 05:27 PM
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I don't presume to know any of the answers to the great questions. Only a truly self-deluded person would, in my opinion. I can make guesses, and say my maybe's, but that's as far as my preaching will go. (for instance, I believe that if Jesus was anything more than a regular man, he was only sent here to give us a message. That message has nothing to do with a virgin mother)

I also believe strongly that religious beliefs are best kept to one's self, because typically, sharing has nothing to do with those conversations. 10 times out of 9, it ends up being an attempt to either tell the person opposite them that they are wrong, or someone trying to vindicate their decision not to follow someone else's faith. In other words, they're sharing their anti-faith. It's just trouble.

I spent most of my life in the church, so this stance doesn't come easy.


--------------------
Caw

"I am a Canadian by birth, but I am a Highlander by blood and feel under an obligation to do all I can for the sake of the Highlanders and their literature.... I have never yet spoken a word of English to any of my children. They can speak as much English as they like to others, but when they talk to me they have to talk in Gaelic."

-Alexander Maclean Sinclair of Goshen (protector of Gaelic Culture)

We need more Stan Rogers.

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Patch 
Posted: 15-Mar-2010, 08:15 PM
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Most who signed on to populate this country did so because they felt they were experiencing religious oppression in England. They were considered radicals in England and when they experienced freedom here they wanted more. What happened is nothing but human nature and had the King not under estimated us we might have lost. As it was, we set up a world model for self rule.

Having read all of the documents of our founding fathers including the Federalist Papers, I find it quite evident that all of the founding fathers harbored Christian beliefs. Those who went on to serve in govt. held a reserved position on the subject in their public lives due to the first amendment. They had made religious freedom a part of the govt. contract with the people and it would have been hypocritical to then press for a specific religion. Those who did not serve in government and those having left government service were quite open about their Christian beliefs.

As for our founders being thought to be traitors by the King, any nation that gains it's freedom from another is thought by the oppressing nation to be traitorous. All things are relative of course.

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oldraven 
Posted: 15-Mar-2010, 08:50 PM
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Well, there are other options to gaining your independence than revolution. wink.gif Like forming a government that allows you to self-govern, whilst continuing to recognise the authority of your Monarch, and your dedication to support them in return for their support. Then you just wait for the Empire to dissolve, but hold on to your mutuality for the sake of preserving your culture.

But that's just one opinion.
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Patch 
Posted: 15-Mar-2010, 09:23 PM
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That there were a number of options, true but in view of our relationship with England at the time we chose what we felt to be the best one as it allowed us to form a government completely to our liking. For us it worked out quite well. For England, initially not so good but not all that bad today.

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oldraven 
Posted: 15-Mar-2010, 11:26 PM
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By no means was it the wrong choice. Simply a different one. It could have gone a lot worse. Just ask the King of France. Oh, wait.... wink.gif
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mcnberry 
Posted: 16-Mar-2010, 03:06 AM
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Gentlemen,

I found this link, which I think is quite interesting.


http://www.deism.com/principlesofnature.htm
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Camac
Posted: 16-Mar-2010, 08:00 AM
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oldraven;

We chose the more benign route to independence through the formation of Responsible Government. We had 3 failed rebellions along the way and for a while the War of 1812 was a near thing. The zing I made about traitors was just that a small zap the main point was that certain of the American Founding Fathers were in essence extremely wary of Organized Religion. Jefferson himself advocated and gained the "separation of Church and State". These were educated well read men (for the day) living in an age of Enlightenment and great changes who had birthed a Nation and now had to guide it's growth. In public life they would adhere to the norms of the day and reference God and Christian beliefs but in private they held on to their personal belief. They acknowledge and believed in a Supreme Being but also observed the Natural World around them which when viewed logically conflicted with the Religious view. Their view that God created the Universe then went on about his/hers business is far more palatable, at least to me, than the stand that Religion takes.


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oldraven 
Posted: 16-Mar-2010, 07:01 PM
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Of those three rebellions, how many stretched beyond the borders of Quebec or the postage stamp province?
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Camac
Posted: 17-Mar-2010, 07:00 AM
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oldraven;

There was the Upper Canada Rebellion here in Ontario led by MacKenzie and the Lower Canada Rebellion led by Papineau both of theses were in 1837 and of course the Riel Rebellion of 1885 in what became Manitoba.


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oldraven 
Posted: 17-Mar-2010, 01:46 PM
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Leave it to Ontario. And they were the ones who crashed Howe's party when the idea of a unified Canada, under the crown, was being formed. Did you know that Halifax was originally meant to be the Capitol? MacDonald couldn't have that, though.
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Camac
Posted: 17-Mar-2010, 04:31 PM
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oldraven;

MY Friend, this is getting way off topic this is suppose to be about Deism.Not Cdn Revolutions.


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oldraven 
Posted: 17-Mar-2010, 05:39 PM
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I pride myself in my ability to go off topic on a mere handful of words. But you're right.
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ridgeback77 
Posted: 17-Mar-2010, 06:38 PM
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Here's to getting back on topic.

I find myself my inline with the Deists beliefs, with one exception. There are over 20 religions in the world that have one thing in common and that is the principle of the "Golden Rule". That is about the only "Word of God" that I put any faith in.
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Camac
Posted: 17-Mar-2010, 08:25 PM
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ridgeback77;

I also find myself inline with some of the teachings of Deism but on further investigation and lots of reading about it I find myself disalutioned and disappointed in that they are an Organized Religion. I have no use for such. To me organizing as they have distorts the teachings as I do not want or need someone telling me what and why I should believe in a certain philosophy or religion.


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