Revised Casualties: 13 Dead, 38 wounded
Hasan reportedly repeated the words Allahu Akbar as he shot people (of course this couldn't have anything to do with Islam
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| Celtic Radio Community > Politics & Current Events > U.S. Army: 7 Dead, 20 Wounded In Ft. Hood Shooting |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 05-Nov-2009, 03:07 PM |
| http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/11/7-dead-12-wounded-in-shooting-at-ft-hood-texas.html Reporting is unclear on who is responsible. If this is a terrorist attack will we ever hear the whole story? |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 05-Nov-2009, 03:58 PM |
| Update: 12 dead (including shooter, armed with two handguns), 31 wounded. Shooter was a soldier, 2 other soldiers in custody as suspects. |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 05-Nov-2009, 04:28 PM | ||
Update: http://abcnews.go.com/WN/soldiers-killed-fort-hood-shooting/story?id=9007938
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| Posted by: Patch 05-Nov-2009, 05:57 PM |
| Interesting. The media may force this information to be made available to the public. It is sad that this happened. I believe a similar attack occurred at a base in the middle east. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 05-Nov-2009, 06:12 PM |
| Some in the Press are implying that this is just another case of SJS (Sudden Jihad Syndrome). The suspected (now deceased) shooter was a physiatrist. I guess that would imply that he was crazier than his patients. This is an example that even if you are in a group of trained soldiers (some of whom may have been combat veterans) you are still just sheep when the assailant is armed and you aren't |
| Posted by: Camac 05-Nov-2009, 06:18 PM |
| Patch; My heartfelt condolences go out to the American People and especially to the Families and the Loved Ones of those so treacherously murdered. All soldiers know that they may one day have to pay the ultimate price but that is on the Battlefield not a processing centre on ones Home Base. The Major, a Muslim who slaughter these unwary victims committed one of the most despicable acts of cowardice ever. Remembrance Day is 6 days away and on that day as I stand in formation before the Cenotaph I will Honour all those who fell this day. ALL HONOUR TO THE FALLEN LEST WE FORGET. Camac. |
| Posted by: Jillian 05-Nov-2009, 06:25 PM |
| Thank you Camac. I feel for the honorable Mideasterner that is serving in the military. They will likely be held suspect by their comrades and carry the burdens of this coward. Jillian |
| Posted by: Patch 05-Nov-2009, 06:35 PM |
| You are right. I just heard that he was an army psychologist or psychiatrist. I will reserve judgement until more is known though this bears watching for numerous reasons. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Camac 05-Nov-2009, 06:36 PM |
| Jillian; Some times I doubt that the Muslims know the meaning of the word HONOUR for if they did they would not stoop to barbarity like this. Camac |
| Posted by: Patch 05-Nov-2009, 06:58 PM |
| I went to school with a person who became a psychiatrist. I was shocked to hear some years later that he had committed suicide and was told it was attributed to "transferring" the stress and ailments of his patients to himself. I suppose there are many possible reasons for this happening but it raises suspicion whey they arrest two possible accomplices. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 05-Nov-2009, 08:26 PM |
| Update: Per Lt. General Cone, Commander III Corps: Maj. Hasan is still alive and in custody. The female Civilian Base Police Officer who stopped him is also still alive. The current casualty count is still 12 dead, 31 wounded. Sean Hannity interviewed a retired Colonel who knows this guy and he has appearrently had an pro-muslim anti-US attitude since 9/11/2001. Why was this guy still in the military? Political Correctness run amuck? |
| Posted by: Patch 06-Nov-2009, 01:02 AM |
| So much for any other possibilities. It now appears that he became radical in his beliefs and equated suicide attacks with military heroism. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: gwenlee 06-Nov-2009, 06:29 AM |
| I heard the 13th person has passed away. What I want to know is how this man slipped through the cracks. Is everyone so afraid of profiling that we now have this to look forward to? My gosh it sounded like there were all kinds of red flags. |
| Posted by: Jillian 06-Nov-2009, 07:07 AM | ||||
You're right Camac--if he was Muslim. And if he was...now more than ever we need Muslims to stand up and publicly denounce this atrocity.
Aside from transference or vicarious traumatization, it should also be considered that the "psychiatrist" may have gone into the career field because he sought to "overcome" or "gain control" of emotions and maladaptive behaviors he experienced throughout his life - and the transference or vicarious traumatization was the icing on the cake. Jillian |
| Posted by: Patch 06-Nov-2009, 08:29 AM |
| Jillian: It IS time for Muslims to denounce the radical portion of their religion. It certainly has been silent on their part though. The kid I went to school with was a bit strange and could easily have had issues to work out. Back then though I am certain the older folk thought we kids all had issues. Today they have decided that there is no conspiracy but admitted the man was "praising Allah" as he killed people. That tells it all for me! My Muslim neighbor was up late partying with his Muslim friends and family last night. I would hope that this incident was not the occasion for the party. I suspect the military was being PC and failed to react to the warnings. I would not want to be a Muslim in combat now. Throughout the history of warfare, "accidents" have happened and for the most part, they have been overlooked. No soldier wants to worry about his fellow troops turning on him in a fire fight. The enemy provides enough stress! Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Camac 06-Nov-2009, 08:49 AM |
| Patch; In the late 7th Century early 8th Century the Muslims stormed out of the Arabian Desert hellbent on conquest and conversion. Their justification Imshallah (Gods Will) . Their first target was the Byzantine Empire when they failed in their first attempts they turned south to Egypt and North Africa then east to Persia and beyond to India and Malaya. Their weapons and tactics have changed but not their goal. I do not think they will stop until either their goal is accomplished or they are all dead. I personally try to be fair and accept all people and their ways but my tolerance is starting to wane not just against Muslims but all religious zealots no matter their stripe. Camac. |
| Posted by: Patch 06-Nov-2009, 10:22 AM |
| I agree, quiet personal belief is fine, but radicalism in any religion is not good. With islam, the goal is conversion. A father killed his daughter here a week ago because she was too western in her actions. I can not comprehend that thinking. Now we will kill him legally. We are dealing with a rapidly growing rabid horde which will have to be anhialated. Under obama it isn't likely to happen. We are each our own first line of defense and one can not win when the adversary is bent on suicide. You can only hope to take the perp with you to meet the creator! Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Antwn 06-Nov-2009, 11:50 AM | ||||||
Pontificate if you must, but I don't think anyone knows enough about the motives of this man to draw an accurate conclusion at this point. |
| Posted by: Camac 06-Nov-2009, 11:56 AM |
| Patch: I came across this article ( which I shall copy in part) about the Islamic Hell: Islamic Hell or Jahannum which was an imagination of the Prophet Mohammed is used primarily for two reasons: 1: To have a torture chamber for all unbelievers and people of other religions. 2: To terrorize people into accepting Islam. The purpose of Hell in Islam is not to punish the Muslim wrongdoers. Because for them Mohammed will recommend paradise, beautiful virgins and young boys(Sodomy) on the Day of Judgment. His recommendation is final and Allah cannot deny it. It is available to all murderers, rapist, arsonists, cheats, thugs, pickpockets, and pimps providing they are following Islam. On the contrary, a flamming Hell is reserved for all Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, and Christians no matter how pious and God-fearing they may have been. Part of the second reason contains the following: Koran 9:73 "Prophet, Make war on the unbelievers and the hypoctites and deal rigourously with them. Hell shall be their Home; an evil fate. Here Mohammed is trying to justify his brutal acts. He conveniently claims divine justification for the expression of his hatred by saying Allah himself revealed to him personally that people of other religions are evil and belong in Hell. Therefore, according to Mohammed any barbaric act against unbelievers is completely justified. Two things my Friend. No wonder I am anti-religious and second, May the Gods, Fate, The Creator, The Universe help us against such barbarous vermin. Camac PS. Google "Islamic Hell" |
| Posted by: Patch 06-Nov-2009, 04:10 PM |
| Camac: I have read the Koran and do not find those practicing Islam a peaceful group. You have provided enough for most of us to see them for what they are, a bunch of sick S@#'s. I am sure all do not subscribe to violence but none will denounce those who do! In my estimation, they too are guilty. If my church encouraged me to kill non believers, I would leave them in an instant and watch them closely. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 06-Nov-2009, 05:05 PM |
| Update: Revised Casualties: 13 Dead, 38 wounded Hasan reportedly repeated the words Allahu Akbar as he shot people (of course this couldn't have anything to do with Islam ) |
| Posted by: Antwn 06-Nov-2009, 05:32 PM | ||
At this time we don't know his motivation. Because he calls out "God is great" in Arabic no more signifies his motive than a serial killer who yells "Praise Jesus" before he pulls the trigger does. It only signifies what religion he believes in. |
| Posted by: Patch 06-Nov-2009, 05:50 PM |
| Right, but his reported anti American/military and pro Islam discussions and arguments in the months, weeks and days prior to this act do indicate what he was thinking. Particularly his belief that suicide bombers were the same as throwing ones self on a live grenade. Both were hero's. He gave away his possessions in preparation to die(?). Now, if he recovers, he will be tried and convicted (there are plenty of witnesses). Then he will DIE! No matter what his motive was, I hear NO ONE from the Islamic community (other than his family and they are probably scared out of their witts) speaking out against this terrible act. I do not hold his family responsible but some may! Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Antwn 06-Nov-2009, 07:53 PM | ||
Well, aren't you just chock full of assumptions. Is there a problem with waiting until we actually have information about his motives? Are you relying on the news media for your "observations"? Is it the same media who said at first that he'd been shot dead? You may end up being correct, but that doesn't mean you know anything definitive now. Hey, jump to whatever conclusions you want, no skin off my fanny, I'm just making a point. Concerning your last point -- there are some Muslim groups who have condemned this shooting. See? You assume. It took a quick internet search of 1/2 a minute to come up with this site: http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/11/06/american-muslim-groups-condemn-fort-hood-shooting/ then there's this site: http://www.islamicinformationcenter.org/frontpage/front-page-items/iic-condemns-the-attack-on-fort-hood.html Just because YOU haven't heard about something doesn't mean it hasn't happened. A few minutes of searching would have shown you that. I guess righteous indignation is more fun, huh? What did you mean by this comment, by the way? "We are dealing with a rapidly growing rabid horde which will have to be anhialated." |
| Posted by: Camac 06-Nov-2009, 09:15 PM |
| Antwn; If I may comment. I have some of the same feelings as Patch. This was a despicable act of cowardice and murder perpetrated by a Muslim and if it had been done by a Christian, Jew , or Hindu I would feel the same way. There is no place in a civilized society or fanatics, or zealots of any stripe. All who would follow this path should be annihilated. Islam like Christianity was spread by the sword. Only it seems that parts of Islam ( and Christianity) haven't learned to sheath that sword. As a fallen Catholic I do remember some of the teachings and I do not remember reading anywhere in the New Testament that Christ told his followers to Smite their Enemies and kill the non-believers. In fact I believe he taught the opposite, something about loving thy neighbours and turning the other cheek. A philosophy, I admit having trouble at times living up to. I am, as you know a Vet. and both my families, blood and adopted, have long histories of military service. The one thing that has always stood out to me was that one must have honour for without it you are nothing. Camac. |
| Posted by: Patch 06-Nov-2009, 09:55 PM |
| It came from all over the media. No Muslim group was on any media outlet nationally (I get 6) denouncing this act as of about 5PM today. I was looking for it! When all media outlets agree on the details, (all had him dead in the beginning including the military commander) I assume they are reporting what the military releases. Those who served with him were interviewed and those who argued with him were interviewed. His record at Walter Reed was discussed on the new as were his disciplinary problems. He got a free medical education which he will no longer have use for and beyond that, he had little use for the military. His family adamantly denounced his actions. Were I in their position I would too. Had you followed the news about this as closely as I have, you would have caught all of the things I posted. This is of concern to me because I know how the ground troops will deal with it in a combat situation. If you have any combat experience, you know too. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 07-Nov-2009, 10:48 AM |
| http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572859,00.html |
| Posted by: Camac 07-Nov-2009, 11:33 AM |
| Patch; I have done some more reading on the subject of Islam and I realize that in a moment of outrage I posted only one side of the debate about the religion. Now that I have a cooler head I realize that I was looking for things that condemmed Islam. It like any religion has it's good and bad points and I guess maybe as a person who is not to enthralled with religion I should have been more disconcerning in my posting. I still feel disgusted, horrified, and appalled at this cowardly murderous act but I am now directing it at the individual not all Muslims. What helped also is the memory of two Muslim families I had living in the building. One Turkish and the other Iranian. Both families , although they practiced their religion were very secular and both were really nice people. When the Turkish family left they wanted my E-Mail address and they took some pictures of me and their boys to remember me by. Felt nice. The Iranian family when they left also thanked me for all the help I had given them. So my Friend, there are good and bad in all walks of life. I apologize to all for my initial reaction to the Tragedy at Ft. Hood. Camac. |
| Posted by: Patch 07-Nov-2009, 12:21 PM |
| Camac: That is perfectly OK. I have always said that not all Muslims are radicals but I believe the non-radical number is lower than most think. I worked with a Syrian immigrant who came here and did as Theodore Roosevelt said, fully assimilated himself into our society. He was a good friend and would bring me me Syrian cigarettes when he went home to visit relatives. I provided him with a bottle of good scotch from time to time and we met for lunch often. He used to joke that since little tobacco was grown in Syria compared to the demand, and since they had a lot of camels they blended the tobacco with dried camel droppings. From the taste it could have been true. On the other hand, I have a neighbor who is from Iran and who beat and nearly killed his wife, committed bankruptcy fraud, Financially ruined three local business partners in various ventures and has a party every time Islam prevails over the US. I know more of the latter than the former and I have asked the quiet ones why they do not denounce radical Islam. They claim to be afraid. Look at the guy who recently ran over his daughter with a SUV and killed her because she had become "too American." That is a requirement of the Koran. He did not assimilate!!! They can practice their religion here BUT within the scope of our laws! Now we will have to keep this SOB for 30 or 40 years! I say execute him, wrap him in pig skin and bury him. "If" the Major at Ft. Hood survives, he WILL be executed and his corpse should be disposed of in the same manner. This AM the flags were lowered. The media gave credit to obama. The VFW was taking donations for local disabled vets today at a convenience store and I talked with them (also donated). They said they waited over an hour after the news broke and then lowered their flag on their own. The two vets manning the table were not at all happy with obama! Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Antwn 07-Nov-2009, 02:19 PM | ||
My comment was about making assumptions, not about the rightness of terrorist actions, quite the contrary. WHY is it that no one on this board seems to be able to read and interpret a post !!!!!!??????? |
| Posted by: Antwn 07-Nov-2009, 02:23 PM | ||
You said -- "No matter what his motive was, I hear NO ONE from the Islamic community (other than his family and they are probably scared out of their witts) speaking out against this terrible act. I do not hold his family responsible but some may!" Now you say it was because the media didn't tell you about it. Yes , if the media doesn't say so it doesn't happen. Had you bothered to look you would have found what I did in a few seconds ...as I did. Yet now you must justify. Why don't you just admit you didn't make an effort to find out if anything was said. Nevermind Patch, no matter what you do you're still transparent. |
| Posted by: Patch 07-Nov-2009, 04:33 PM |
| I have never felt a need to justify any thing to you. For the rest I was following the news nearly constantly from the time this first started. Strange that even the liberal media did not cover this aspect. Actually the first Muslim I heard speak against this was reported on Fox News this AM when his Imam stated that during two discussions with the Major he told him "there was something wrong with him." He failed though to report it to anyone else. Nice guy! There have been some denunciations slowly coming out today from mostly smaller Islamic groups. Now I am watching football but will catch up when that is over. I can not credit the military with too much good judgement in this matter either. No matter, he is not long for this world and that is as it should be. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Annabelle 07-Nov-2009, 10:44 PM |
| The shooter is one of the people who help debreaf incoming and outgoing. I wonder what damage he did while he was in a professional capacity? My son Matthew is Station at Ft Hood but he is at his 3rd tour over in Iraq right now. He is due back in January. I have 2 clients that have son's that are stationed at Ft Hood so you can imagine how they felt til they spoke with their son's? I would be terrified. |
| Posted by: Annabelle 07-Nov-2009, 10:54 PM |
| I will never believe he is an American Citizen.... When he apologized for America to the rest of the world appalled me. America is the one that was attacked and when he apologized I knew no matter what he does during his administration I could never respect someone who would represent me that way. His apology was a slap in every veteran's face in AMerica! I think no one should be able to hold the office of President unless he has been in the Armed Forces. That way he knows how it feels. This President hasen't a clue. And for the Nobel Peace Prize that holds no value to me anymore. I thought it was to people who made a difference, not talked about when they were going to do something. I'll be glad when this last 3 years are over. Maybe we can get AMerica going again and people will have jobs again. I'd like to kick everyone that voted for him. |
| Posted by: Jillian 08-Nov-2009, 07:56 AM | ||
Here I go...pontificating again...but wait, that's what I thought this forum was all about! I won't assume any answer is the right answer at this point, but we certainly do need to try and understand it (not to be confused w/agreeing w/it). We may never understand exactly why Hasan did this unless he survives and is able to tell us. But in grieving tradegies such as this, it's natural for a community of people to react with horror, anger and disbelief. I think this thread is important, because we need to continue to discuss the issues surrounding the tradgedy - not bury it and our feelings about it. Our job isn't to attack each other and try to insult, but to state an opinion or feeling about it. If we keep the discourse open and safe, much can be learned from one another. So the theories are: A. He was nothing but a terrorist ideologue B. He was unstable to begin with C. He was overwhelmed w/secondary PTSD/Compassion fatigue and "lost it" upon learning of his own deployment Did I leave any out? Please add if I did. So now we try to heal and minimize or prevent similar tradegies right? Here's a NY Time's article I thought worthy of further consideration of the tradgedy: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/08/us/08stress.html?_r=1&sudsredirect=true |
| Posted by: Patch 08-Nov-2009, 08:15 AM |
| Those with children in the middle east now fighting have the constant fear of "notification". They can relax when their loved ones are in the US? Not any more. The Major was disciplined at Walter Reed for failing to do his job properly IE: improperly counseling patients re the war. He was transferred and scheduled for deployment for that reason. He could have been responsible for the increase in suicide numbers with the returning vets. We will never know that though. He was practicing his religion as he understood it from the Koran and in doing so caused death and serious injury to Americans. That is terrorism whether the act is either caused by a group or an individual. It matters not! Many knew the Major harbored radical Islamic beliefs and did nothing. That would include at the least his Islamic spiritual advisor (off post) the military it's self, fellow military personnel and quite likely his family and MANY others in his circle of friends neighbors and acquaintances. Not all Muslims believe as the Major does but the number who do not is much lower than we would like to believe. As for obama, he does not act like a citizen and a court case still is in the upper levels of the system to force determination of his status officially. So far those trying to force determination of his birth place have won in every important hearing and the case continues. I understand it is pretty much funded. There is a topic here that relates to his "birth location" which created quite a controversy with the supporters of the left. If he was not born on American soil, he can not serve as president. I would not serve under him and my grandchildren will not. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Camac 08-Nov-2009, 08:55 AM |
| When I had recovered from my wounds and was discharged from the Hospital in 1970 I was posted to a training unit at Fort Sam Houston. It was our task to train new Doctors, Nurses and other Medical Professionals the basics of being soldiers. Drill, weapons, map reading and survival in combat, to name a few. I was newly married and my wife was 3 months pregnant and life seem pretty good with one exception, I could not shake a longing to return to Viet Nam. I missed Combat or more so the excitment of Combat, the fear, exhileration, the adrenalin rush and even the shakes and vomitting ( I always threw up after coming down off the adrenalin, still do)) after the fight was over. I was screwed up and didn't know it. In mid November just over a month after Paula was born I cracked. I went to the pshyciatrist and was put on a pretty powerful tranquilizer, big mistake, I took an overdoze in an attempt to committ suicide. The only reason I am here to-day is that somehow I fell out of bed which woke up my wife and she called the ambulance and I was rushed to Brooke Army Med. Centre and my stomach was pumped out. For the next six months I was in therapy, that is also the time that the drinking started to take hold. I was transferred to Germany in April 71 and had to continue with the therapy for another six months by which time I was a full blown alcoholic. It wasn't the therapy that made me drink it was that I found it alot easier to cope when I had a few shots in me, a good few. The booze finally did me in in the fall of 72 and I was re-hospitalized to dry our. What saved me that time was that my wife and daughter had joined me in Germany and I decided that I wanted to stick around and watch my little girl grow up. At this time I also somehow learned to control the constant yearning to return to combat and in Sept. 73 left the Army and came Home to Canada. The whole time I was going through this mental upheaval I only saw a psychiatrist 3 or 4 times mostly I talked to Mental Health Specialist. There was also a certain stigma attatched to this and of course it became part of my permanent record. I remember the 1st segeant saying that I would never get higher than Staff Sergeant E-6 because the Army "do'nt want no f-----g nut cases as top sergeants". In some small way I can relate to those who suffer from P.T.S.D. I am a victim and I think that maybe in some way it contributed to the breakup of my marriage 13 years later. Camac. |
| Posted by: Jillian 08-Nov-2009, 12:45 PM |
| Camac, Soooo well said. Thank you for your service and for the above post. There are no words that can describe how important your above post is. Jillian |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 08-Nov-2009, 02:20 PM |
| http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6521758/Fort-Hood-shooting-Texas-army-killer-linked-to-September-11-terrorists.html Reporting you'll never see in the American "LameStream Press" |
| Posted by: Patch 08-Nov-2009, 02:56 PM |
| MacEoghainn: Some of the things made the news but not the most incriminating. It will be interesting to see what comes of this. Jillian: I am guessing it was "B". He used the military to gain an education and when it came time to pay the military back he flipped out. There were plenty of signs and the tragedy still happened. Camac: You accurately describe what happens to many returning soldiers. You were fortunate in that many are successful in their suicide attempts. Prior to VN most soldiers did not know if they had killed anyone. From VN on there is a face to go with many of the shots fired. It becomes very personal and the effect is much more profound. Some take many years to recover and some never do. Some justify what is happening at the time. Some feel it is between themselves and God! I personally did and do prefer the latter two. I did for a while drink my share and probably several other peoples share of scotch and beer. I never felt it was for anything but entertainment but who knows. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Camac 08-Nov-2009, 03:45 PM |
| Patch; For years I saw the faces of those whose existence I ended. It rarely happens now as I think I have reconciled myself to what happened. As vindictive as this may sound I hope that the face of those he murdered haunt the coward every moment of his remaining life right up to the end.It is fitting retribution. Camac. |
| Posted by: Antwn 08-Nov-2009, 03:58 PM | ||
Does CBS news qualify as "lamestream press?" This article even mentions the one you cited. Its seems your use of the word "never" was premature. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/08/national/main5578580.shtml?tag=cbsContent;cbsCarousel |
| Posted by: Patch 08-Nov-2009, 04:32 PM | ||||
CBS certainly does qualify! Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Dogshirt 09-Nov-2009, 07:29 PM |
| Just saw this on Yahoo; http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091110/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_fort_hood_shooting_231 If "They" knew about this in the last year, WHY was he still in the military? WHY wasn't he under some sort of scrutiny? WHY was he loose to do this sort of thing? WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY WHEN THEY LET PC interfere WITH PEOPLE'S SAFETY????????????? This guy should have "disappeared" years ago! If he had any hair, I'd put his scalp on my lodge pole, but as it is, I'd just be going through the motions!  |
| Posted by: Patch 09-Nov-2009, 07:41 PM |
| Dogshirt: I always felt a well tanned skin made a fine trophy too. Hair is optional! Especially in his case. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Antwn 09-Nov-2009, 08:29 PM | ||
What do you mean "why was he still loose to do this sort of thing?" What were they supposed to do incarcerate him for talking to an imam? Guilt by association? You ask why was he in the military. Is anyone in the military who associates with a radical religious leader of any faith subject to dismissal by virtue of that association? Should a Christian whose pastor is the same pastor who advised an abortion doctor's killer be suspect of wrongdoing simply by that association? Your own article here says, regarding his electronic communications with the imam: "Hasan's messages were picked up by U.S. counterterrorism officials, but an inquiry into the matter was shelved because the contacts were not deemed to suggest a threat, this official said." So he was under scrutiny. Yet scrutiny and investigation does not constitute some sort of flawless psychic foresight into probable futures. Its likely that Hasan was a lone nutter. No ties to radical Islamic groups have been reported as yet, except for the imam the article mentions, and as stated, those contacts were not deemed to suggest a threat. Hindsight is 20/20 foresight isn't. |
| Posted by: Patch 09-Nov-2009, 09:32 PM | ||
Dogshirt: In an early interview with a mid level officer it was suggested that political correctness had come into play. I believe that news bit was late on the first day. It was also announced that the military will try him so expect a rather swift execution! He will have only one review after being sentenced so any arrangements he needs to make with Allah should be made quickly. I do not know if he will be executed in a federal prison or at Ft. Leavenworth. The last I knew they still hanged death sentence recipients at Leavenworth though that could have changed. He was a real piece of work for sure!! Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Dogshirt 09-Nov-2009, 10:14 PM | ||
What I MEAN is just what I said, after Nam, ANYONE with thoughts, tendencies or actions like his were put under observatory confinement. Do you think that issues like his are NEW? Asian soldiers had a VERY hard time after WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam, although it was usually suicide not homicide that was the outcome. He should never been considered for further active duty and been discharged expeditiously! |
| Posted by: Jillian 10-Nov-2009, 05:58 AM | ||
Yes. If the pastor's advisements urge others to extremism. I also believe that if someone is regularly attending a church where the pastor is urging its parishoners to kill abortion doctors or blow up clinics...they too should be suspect. Why on earth would "a good Christian" stay at a church like that?? Jillian |
| Posted by: Camac 10-Nov-2009, 09:07 AM |
| Because some A--H--E didn't want to upset some group and do the Politically Correct thing 13 young people are dead and almost 2 score wounded. Who the hell started this PC bull. I am not even an American and I am really, really Pissed Off. The idiot who made the decision not to tell about him should be hung right beside murderer preferrably not by the neck but by a lower part of the anatomy over a slow fire. Camac |
| Posted by: Dogshirt 10-Nov-2009, 10:42 AM | ||
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| Posted by: stevenpd 10-Nov-2009, 01:20 PM | ||
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2383016/posts |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 10-Nov-2009, 02:54 PM | ||
One of the many problems with the Marxist/Leninist/Progressive/PC crowd is the belief we all are safer if the public is disarmed. This disaster is an example of what happens to people (many, if not most of whom were highly trained soldiers w/combat experience) when they are disarmed and the predatory monster is not. You would think that the Officers and NCOs on a Military Base could be trusted/required to carry sidearms at all times while on duty, after all the last time I checked we are in two wars. Of course the chance of that happening in this PC world "are slim and none". ***************************************************************** The PC top brass and the President are apparently more concerned with "Diversity" than the security of our country and the troops: http://blogs.reuters.com/frontrow/2009/11/08/general-casey-diversity-shouldnt-be-casualty-of-fort-hood/ Their incompetence and failure to purge from the ranks people like Maj. Hasan actually puts loyal soldiers of the Muslim faith in more danger, not less. I'm sure the combat veterans here at CR.net can tell us what happens to the people in combat that can't be trusted to watch their brothers backs. |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 10-Nov-2009, 03:53 PM |
| http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/why-there-will-be-more-military-base-shootings/ |
| Posted by: stevenpd 10-Nov-2009, 05:30 PM | ||
From the above noted article:
Exactly. |
| Posted by: Patch 10-Nov-2009, 05:34 PM | ||
I touched on that earlier. In combat, first the enemy "within" is eliminated. People think that is terrible but combat is about survival and winning. The military would be remiss if they put Muslims in combat after this incident. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 10-Nov-2009, 05:42 PM | ||
I was always told that incompetents are "left in the rear with the gear" and those dangerous people that need to be "removed" find themselves permanently walking point or acting as human mine detectors. |
| Posted by: Patch 10-Nov-2009, 05:56 PM |
| Actually it went even further on occasion. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Dogshirt 10-Nov-2009, 06:04 PM |
| Anyone ever heard the term "fragged"? |
| Posted by: stevenpd 10-Nov-2009, 06:09 PM |
| I wasn't going to say anything . . . . |
| Posted by: Patch 10-Nov-2009, 06:18 PM | ||
Yes, I have. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Dogshirt 10-Nov-2009, 08:34 PM |
| Now they're all trying to say it was some one else's fault and/or responsiblity. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091111/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_fort_hood_shooting |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 10-Nov-2009, 08:54 PM | ||
All the bureaucratic vermin are scurrying to avoid the light. Add Political Correctness to an intrenched bureaucracy and you have exactly what you are seeing now. It's just a matter of time before something like this happens again! |
| Posted by: Patch 11-Nov-2009, 02:09 AM |
| Cock roaches scurry to avoid the light do they not? A nasty dirty little bug but a good comparison. The elected and appointed parasites are willing to accept the glory but when there is blame they crawl into the cracks. When you belong to a group that advocates killing American non believers, you have lost the right to PC by association with that group. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Camac 11-Nov-2009, 09:01 AM |
| I heard on ABC News last night that the Pentagon claiming that they never received the paper work on the Major and that some field agent or simething saw the reports and did't think they warranted further action as it might breach his 1st Ammendment rights. The man is corresponding with known terrorist and someone is afrid to violate his rights. What a crock.He should have been arrested and then worry about his rights if he had any. The security of your countries at risk and they worry about his rights. Well we know what that idiotic move cost. Camac. |
| Posted by: Patch 11-Nov-2009, 09:12 AM |
| This bears watching as this is likely to be the biggest case of CYOA the world has ever seen. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 11-Nov-2009, 04:50 PM |
| http://www.lifenews.com/state4567.html Will we ever hear about this from the government or the "Lamestream" Press? |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 11-Nov-2009, 05:07 PM |
Don't hold your breath waiting for the Islamic Terrorist Hasan to be executed  :http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/6715678.html |
| Posted by: Patch 11-Nov-2009, 05:12 PM |
| In the past the military has always taken a dim view of members murdering their own. In thehe one case I was familiar with an infantry co. pfc killed three fellow soldiers in the latrine. He was tried in a general courts martial at 5th Army HQ and found guilty and sentenced to die. Within 90 days he had his mandatory sentence review and in 60 more days he was executed! This administration might give him cookies, milk and counseling though. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Patch 11-Nov-2009, 07:06 PM |
| I just heard on the radio a part of an address given by Napolianto saying the problem causing the Ft. Hood killings was guns and radical religion. The govt was first going to concentrate on the Catholic church! A military base has the highest concentration of guns anywhere. Do we disarm them? Her attack on the Catholic church is because of the plan to strip the anti abortion amendment from the bill. The church started a nationwide push to contact legislators last Sunday. I would guess the senators are passing razor blades and even the congressmen who already voted for it are scared witless now. I still contend that this administration and all it's advisors could not run a good 5 cent pay toilet! Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 13-Nov-2009, 09:21 AM |
| http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FORT_HOOD_SHOOTING?SITE=TNMEM&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT And? Should we all send the lowlife a get well card? |
| Posted by: Patch 13-Nov-2009, 09:57 AM |
| I am not aware of any paraplegic ever being hung but he could be executed in a federal prison. It is interesting that he has "a" lawyer. I would say he is a bit weak in representation. I will not be sending condolences! Maybe the ACLU will step up to the plate and defend the "poor soul."  Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 01-Jan-2010, 01:24 PM |
| http://www.startribune.com/nation/80437937.html Poor little Islamic Terrorist....are we hurting your feelings?  |
| Posted by: Patch 01-Jan-2010, 04:20 PM |
| It sounds to me like someone is trying to "fabricate" a story! When under oath one has to make sure all are on the same page! If a member of my family had done such a dastardly deed, the only contact I would want would be to witness the execution. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Antwn 01-Jan-2010, 04:51 PM | ||
I'm surprised at you Camac. So, guilt by association is cause for arrest? Should all the people who correspond with Charles Manson (there are many) be arrested under suspicion of being pending pregnant actress murderers? I agree that under the present circumstances, someone corresponding with a known jihadist leader should be investigated and monitored, but if free speech means anything it should at least guarantee a person the right to a conversation without being arrested for it. If he conspired to commit a crime during those conversations, that's another thing. If that was the nature of the conversatons/emails, then authorities could have arrested him on conspiracy charges, if not then what crime had he committed at that point, felonious friendship? The guy was an American citizen. If the Bill of Rights is thrown in the trash every time its inconvenient then for what do we as a country stand? You can't arrest people then worry about their free speech rights later, because a person doesn't have a right to free speech if he's arrested for exercising it. |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 01-Jan-2010, 04:53 PM | ||
Unless the "family member" is a co-conspirator or the defense attorney is trying to coach them on their "stories" why would they need to be in the room. If he was in jail (where he belongs) I seriously doubt they would be allowed in the room (but who knows in our PC world). |
| Posted by: wdorholt 03-Jan-2010, 03:54 AM |
| "The guy was an American citizen. If the Bill of Rights is thrown in the trash every time its inconvenient then for what do we as a country stand? You can't arrest people then worry about their free speech rights later, because a person doesn't have a right to free speech if he's arrested for exercising it." Well said Antwn. A necessary reminder of what we value with our freedom. There were other indications that might have triggered further scrutiny here, besides his emails to the cleric. Some of his alleged professional behavior seemed quite telling of a man in need of help, behavior that was suspicious regardless of the outcomes that occurred. I would have thought his clinical supervisor would have seen the conflict within the man and granted him a removal from duty. |
| Posted by: Patch 03-Jan-2010, 05:33 AM |
| He is a terrorist, nothing less. In acting in such a manner, he gave up many rights he would normally have. He should be in a military prison as the hospital at this point is performing custodial care. In any prison, he would not have unlimited prisoners. He does have visiting by his family. The military just controls the terms. Were he in a civilian hospital and under police guard, I am not sure the police would even let family into the room. I am told by a police officer that they would not. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 11-Jan-2010, 10:41 AM | ||
http://dailynews.muzi.com/news/ll/english/10097358.shtml
How long and how many investigations does it take to understand what kind of damage "Political Correctness" is having on our military and its ability to fight terrorism,as well as detect problems within the ranks? |
| Posted by: Antwn 11-Jan-2010, 03:48 PM | ||
So what's the difference in terms of rights and nomenclature between Hasan killing several people on a military base and the man who gunned down several people in the federal courthouse in Nevada recently? Are they both terrorists in your view, since they "acted in the same manner", or is Hasan a terrorist only because of his political and religious views and his name? Why would constitutional rights be applicable to one and not the other if they're both US citizens? What I'm finding difficult to understand is the endless harping about the constitution when it comes to guns or other hobbies of posters who simultaneously are all in favor of denying constitutional rights to those they personally dislike. Its as though you think the constitution was written for you and rights should be dispensed and withheld according to your personal preferences. This is a highly duplicitous attitude isn't it, for one so principled? |
| Posted by: Jillian 11-Jan-2010, 06:20 PM |
| A retired colonel I work with received some information about Hassan's "transfers" over parts of his career. He said the pattern of transfers displayed a tendency to pass Hassan on to a position less damaging. Only problem is he ended up providing therapy for veterans. Veteran must often discuss very sensitive issues when processing trauma. If Dr. hassan threaten to expose them (which I believe he did), then this issue would be ground for action. If he was voicing extremist Islamic views, then the nature of his employment should also have led to performance evaluations. I think we all know the difficulty this situation presented. It is one thing to have personal opinions regarding politics, religion, culture, etc. (as all therapists do), but when those opinions alienate the patients--performance evaluations must occur. We all have rights for sure. But as a Christian, I am not to discuss this w/any patients unless they wish to incorporate it into their treatment. The same goes for all other religious/spiritual views. I have the right to declare my religion...on my time...not while on my employers time. I believe there is way more to this than meets the eye. Jillian |
| Posted by: Patch 11-Jan-2010, 06:32 PM | ||
Your last sentence captures the entire essence of this terrorist act! Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: wdorholt 12-Jan-2010, 05:18 AM |
| It strikes me that because the previous administration chose to declare a war on "terrorism", which is a method of fighting rather than an organization to be at war with, we don't know how to easily identify the combatants. If crimes of terrorism can also be acts of war we get more confused. Current law: United States Law Code – the law that governs the entire country – contains a definition of terrorism in its requirement that Annual Country reports on Terrorism be submitted by the Secretary of State to Congress every year. (From U.S. Code Title 22, Ch.38, Para. 2656f(d) (d) Definitions (2) the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents; The United States has defined terrorism under the Federal criminal code. 18 U.S.C. §2331[25] defines terrorism as: …activities that involve violent… or life-threatening acts… that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State and… appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping…." But whether he fits these definitions or not, he still has rights of trial. In his case it looks like he will be tried in Military court for murder as long as he isn't deemed a terrorist. If he is deemed to be one and depending on who he is involved with, it could be decided under the authority of Bush's Military Order that the President may try him in federal court for acts of terror. I hope it stays with the military. I think his rights as a military officer will be protected and my little brain can handle a military trial for a military man allegedly committing murder of military personnel on a military base. I realize he also allegedly killed non military personnel, but my brain starts to hurt again. We are a country that purports to uphold the rule of law and the rights of its citizens. We have a system that would rather free wrongdoers rather than incarcerate wrongly, to protect us from lack of due process. It is what those in the military and government take an oath to protect. |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 12-Jan-2010, 06:41 AM |
| Because Major Hasan is active duty military he and his actions fall under the http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/l/blucmj.htm In addition to any murder or attempted murder charges I think he should have also been charged under the following articles: http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/mcm/bl81.htm http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm94.htm http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm104.htm http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/mcm/bl106.htm I suspect the continued Political Correctness in the military and the current administration will prevent any charges based on any of those articles. |
| Posted by: wdorholt 13-Jan-2010, 01:18 AM |
| Good information MacE. I think there is still a chance for more charges pending further investigation. I did see that Bush's Military Order only applies to non citizens, so that won't be the issue I thought is was in my previous post. |
| Posted by: Patch 13-Jan-2010, 01:40 AM |
| In my opinion, the Major, as a member of the military and having committed acts of murder/terrorism on a military base should be held in a military prison hospital under the rules of the UMCJ. When you sign your contract with the military you agree to submit to the rules (laws) as set forth by the UCMJ. His attorney wants those waived. I question whether additional charges will be brought at this late date. However with the number of counts of murder lodged against him he should certainly be executed. There are plenty of witnesses to the crime and forensics tracing the bullets back to his firearm. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 15-Jan-2010, 06:35 AM |
| http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100115/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_fort_hood_pentagon_review_10 The search for scapegoats is apparently complete and the guilty have been determined. Naturally Army Brass, Army policies, and political correctness could have had nothing to do with this incident.  |
| Posted by: Patch 15-Jan-2010, 07:11 AM |
| I guess with this administration this should not come as a shock. None of the top brass today accepts any responsibility even though they set the policy. I should add that this is not a problem that came into being in the last year. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Jillian 15-Jan-2010, 07:29 AM | ||
With all the talk about whether to profile or not to profile, I began thinking about other examples of terrorism. The Kansas minister Fred Phelps (who goes around protesting funerals of gays, political people, Irish, Jew, etc), delicately seems to balance on the verge of the above definition of terrorism. Personally I believe the man to be a terrorist. Phelps avers it is his 1st amendment right. So when do one's political or religious views actually become terroristically threatening? If I'm at a friend's funeral who happens to be gay, and this guy shows up with his minions to protest, I would be fearful (due to the fact that I believe he is an unstable nut) that harm may come to me. How am I protected by law? Another example is the violence errupting from anti-abortion groups or retaliations by pro-abortion groups. I feel they are terrorists as well because they threaten the freedoms of this country. McVey = terrorist. Where do we draw the line? I think we can profile terrorists. If they happen to be Euro-American like Fred Phelps--so be it. If they happen to be mideastern like Hasan--so be it. But we really do need the discourse to flesh out some firm boundaries. It is the world we now live in. Jillian |
| Posted by: Patch 15-Jan-2010, 10:18 AM | ||
Your first paragraph describes first amendment rights. I do not like the guy but he has rights. The second paragraph describes your discomfort with the man which though real is not something the Constitution or the govt protects you from. McVey was a "domestic" terrorist. He acted. We have the Constitution and the Patriot act, which it's self may be unconstitutional and which the govt only uses as it sees fit. Our govt has the tools to deal with terrorists and had them through most if not all of our wars. Giving up more freedoms to a govt that can and will not use the tools it has gains nothing. Not only do we loose even more safety but the legal ability to defend ourselves in lieu of any help from the govt. I do not believe that this administration will ever take any "real" action that would single out the possible terrorists if it involves politically incorrect actions. PC will be foremost. Israel with the best security in the world and Russia with it's web of secret police can not stop terrorist attacks so we should not expect much here. We are using our security/spy satellites in part to watch icebergs melt. That should indicate the priority this administration puts on our safety! Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Dogshirt 15-Jan-2010, 07:50 PM | ||
Such is the way of the military, "$h1t Flows Downhill!" No one in ANY seat of power will be touched. It will go down to the lowest personel that it can reach! |
| Posted by: wdorholt 16-Jan-2010, 02:00 AM | ||
It would seem to me that his supervisors would be the closest to seeing his "issues" and should have acted. I suppose you could go up the chain and fault their supervisors for having supervisors who didn't act, and on and on up to the President. But only if you have some political agenda, not if you stay within the framework of customary supervisory responsibility. It is pretty rare that a CEO of a company takes the fall for someone failing to supervise the janitor don't you think? |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 26-Jan-2010, 06:44 AM |
| http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100125/ap_on_re_us/us_fort_hood_shooting_1 This is only the beginning of the legal manipulations you can expect to see in the attempt by the defense to get this guy off on insanity/mental illness. Didn't everyone know that all Muslims are "crazy"? We can probably expect a similar defense for the "underwear bomber". |
| Posted by: Patch 26-Jan-2010, 11:58 AM | ||
The policy of PC came from the top. Without that it would not likely have happened. His superiors were doing the best they could until he went on "his" Jihad. They were transferring him to the Middle East. There he would have kept his mouth shut and behaved as the soldiers have guns too!!! Those who served know how the military system works, those who did not do not have a clue. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 07-Mar-2010, 07:05 AM |
| This issue has fallen off the "lamestream media" radar... http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,588282,00.html but if you think the Islamic extremists have stopped their plans then this should be a wakeup call. The question is are any of these people paying attention. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rlCzcbeTO9g&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rlCzcbeTO9g&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rBA2V4AXNI0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rBA2V4AXNI0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> |
| Posted by: Camac 07-Mar-2010, 09:02 AM |
| Mace; How she ever was appointed to Homeland security is beyond me. She can't even differenciated between your southern and northern borders. Camac. |