Iraq Conflict

[Jimmy Carbomb]

As discretion is the better part of valour, perhaps this (now gone) post would be better placed somewhere else.  In order to maintain the serious "air" of this thread, and not appear to be making light of the discussion, I'll place this elsewhere.

Shame others in our world can't take a step back and "rethink" a previous acton.

[Catriona]

Luckily, WelshGuy is too busy to post at the moment!  He lives in Paris and his partner is French.....

Personally, I love France, their food, the countryside etc...    

[scottish2]

Am going to reply to Aon and Gaelic posts with this one so Scroll down to appropriate sections.

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Aon: Actually if what I heard in a recent anti-war song is correct the Nuremberg Trials actually rejected this Nazi doctrine of Preemptive strikes. Here's the song. for at least those who oppose war here you might enjoy this song. It's a version of Inagadadevida (I know most likely mispelled ) The comments I refer to are mentioned at about 3 minutes and 55 seconds in this song below.

http://arizona.indymedia.org/news/2003/02/7006.php

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Gaelic: Part of the reason I am so passionate about not having wars and I don't think anyone can truely understand unless they have visited Hiroshima or nagasaki, (I went to Hiroshima a few months back) But unless you view the meseums there and see just how horrid it was no one can truely know the full horrors of war (This doesn't mean there are not other historical musems that would also detail the atrocities of war). But I know I went with my wife and she had to stop after the first floor and to some degree I am glad she did because it only got worse as to what the true horrors of war are. I have to admit I never felt more ashamed of the USA then I did walking through that museum. WHat we put those poor people through and some are still going through it today because the full effects of the bombs have not fully been played out until the last surviving person dies. Unless you experiance war first hand this maybe the only way civilians can even begin to understand just how bad war is. I just started a new website and bare in mind this is a work in progress I know it needs work but am still working on it but have gotten a shell up with some basic links and pictures I took while I was there. Bare in mind I could not take inside photos as explained below so there is no graphic photos on the site. The closest thing to graphic is the A-Bomb dome which was a building near the hypercenter of the explosion that was left as a sort of memorial and reminder for teh future.

http://www.geocities.com/worldpeacetoday2003/

And this is the site for the museum I mentioned above.

http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/

There's a button near top center for their English page. Make note I have reported text sizing to them as some text is small and hard to read and the webmaster asked me where so I responded and he said he'd fix when he has some spare time.

And even this is just a mere shadow of what the museum shows on display. I would have taken pictures to share with those interested but inside they did not want flash photos taken and with the type of display it was it could not be bright and cheery. It was lite on purpose to set a mood.

Thing that scares me is we have more and more nations aquiring the big bomb and if we the people of the world don't stand up to those who wage war (and yes that includes the George W Bush's of the world) we might not survive the next cold war. Is this what we want our kids growing up in. While I can't say I remember the duck and cover drills some of you in here I know can. Is this how you would want your grandchildren brought up having to fear what you did going through school and such wondering when and if it was ever going to happen?

If we don't remember our history it will come back to bit us in the you know where.    And that is why I cannot remain silent to it any longer. After seeing what I saw in Hiroshima I simply refuse to remain silent and will never support those who wage war. As I said I do fully back our troops but there is a difference between backing our troops and supporting the puppet masters that pull their strings.

[scottish2]

I fully suport France and her position in all this mess. I actually found it sick that Bush now wants to try and force France to help pay to restore Iraq after this is all over. I mean where is the sense in that France didn't want this so now they should have to pay to help repair Bushs destruction??

And how little Americans remember their own history. Does anyone here remember who it was that helped us gain our independence from England?

I'll give you a multiple answer.

A) France
B) France
C) France

And France has had her share of wars lest we forget Napoleon and all Frances battles with England and Spain.

[Jimmy Carbomb]

Quote (Catriona @ Mar. 24 2003,10:42)

Luckily, WelshGuy is too busy to post at the moment!

Hopefully, since he doesn't know me... yet... he'll know that half of my family is French.  When I post Irish and French jokes, it's out of humor only.  There's no deep-set lack of respect or feelings of embarrassment... just an outlook on life that prefers to laugh.

Scottish2... wow, what a museum!  Thanks for the link.  An outstanding (and sobering) testament to the horrors of war.
It reminds me of the Holocaust Museum.  As bad as the images are, there's SO much more to that you can't experience... much like the carnage that all of us experienced while "cleaning-up" lower Manhattan.  That's an odor, sight and nightmare that I'll carry forever.

Raven... gee... I didn't notice any oil price problems.
Does this mean that I'm putting some Saudi's kid through college instead of my four?

[RavenWing]

Quote (Gaelic Bread @ Mar. 24 2003,11:52)

Raven... gee... I didn't notice any oil price problems.

Aw, that was just in respose to a complaint I read.  They are higher here, but not over 2.00 a gallon thank goodness!!!

[scottish2]

I know and to experience teh museum first hand is almost frightening. As I said I am glad my wife gave up after the first floor as she would have had a hard time going through the second building as it got quite graphic with actual effects and lets just say other things that we quite grusome. For anyone interested in learning more I wanted to also recommend 2 books. One I know for a fact can be bought on-line the other you might have toi contact the Hiroshima Peace Culture Foundation to see if they have it available on-line or can arange it. Personally it is this second book I would recommend highly as it is survivor stories from about 15 different survivors where as the other is based on one mans experiance. I learned a lot from both though. The first can be found through Amazon.com and if this book

Letters from the end of the World

The second book is Eyewitness Testimonies Appeals from the A-Bomb Survivors Only contact I have for this is an E-Mail address for the foundation which is [email protected]. The first book is 2,000 yen which is roughly $20 USD's and the second is 1,000 yen so roughly $10 USD's and I highly recommend both especially if you can't make it to Japan to view teh museums first hand.

But unless you have unfortunately experianced these type of events first hand these maybe the only way to fully understand my stance as well as the stance of many others in this fast shrinking world.

Now a personal question for me would be why the US was never held accountable for Hiroshima & Nagasaki. Part of the Nuremberg charter that came about during the Nuremberg trials of Germany states as follows

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/imtconst.htm#art6

Quote

(b) WAR CRIMES: namely, violations of the laws or customs of war. Such violations shall include, but not be limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave labor or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory, murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity;

After seeing the full scale replicas of Hiroshima before and after I would definately consider the destruction of both Hiroshima and Nagasaki as "wanton" Germany was held accountable for it's actions why was the US never charged? And I ask this as a citizen of the US. Why should our government not be treated the same way they expected Germany to be treated? War is war yes but the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki can never in my mind be justified.

[Jimmy Carbomb]

Quote (scottish2 @ Mar. 24 2003,12:20)

But unless you have unfortunately experianced these type of events first hand these maybe the only way to fully understand my stance as well as the stance of many others in this fast shrinking world.

I think you may have inadvertently helped me to explain my deep-down reason for wanting to see Hussein and the "Al Qaeda types" gone.


When New York "went-up" a year and a half ago, I was on my way into town to do business.  Unfortunately, I was caught in traffic on the Verrazano Narrows Bridge and was not able to turn away from the devastation infront of my eyes. I was forced to experience the whole incident... unable to do anything.

On Wednesday, when I went in to join the Transit Authority workers in working to clear the site and look for survivors, I experienced the worst that humanity could do to itself.

The images that are ingrained in my mind are of the office workers that I knew in WTC-2, and their families at "The Wall".  

I'll never support flat-out war, for war's sake.  But, I view this as the United State's response to YEARS of hijackings, kidnappings, bombings, and attacks on US citizens for just being US citizens.  If the USA can get Hussein and the Terrorist Training Camps out of Iraq without taking innocent Iraqi lives... I'm comfortable with that.

So far, the Red Cross has reported ONE civilian death in all the bombings.  If the US can leave the Iraqi infrastructure intact, keep the citizens uninjured, and take-out the terrorists... I'm comfortable with that.

If this will lead to a Middle East where people are free to express their opinions, practice their religions, and work to lead peaceful and successful lives... I'm comfortable with that.

But like you wrote... unless you've experienced these types of events first-hand, this may be the only way to fully understand my stance, as well as the stance of many others.

GREAT thread.  GREAT exchange of opinions.  GREAT education!!!

[RavenWing]

Wow, Jim.  What a great post.

This is a great thread!

[scottish2]

Well see here in lies my problems with NYC (Mind you nothing personal just in general)

On one hand you have folks (Like youself) who support action.

Then on the other hand you have folks also from NYC who oppose action. Basically saying why mare the deaths of those approx 3000 people by adding more death on top?

I know awhile back I saw on CNN (I think) a news article of how one lady who lost her brother on 911 actually was protesting the war with Iraq and even made a trip to Iraq to meet the people there. Then not too long ago you have the NYC council voting 31-17 to oppose the war

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/12/ny.resolution.ap/

That's not even a close vote that's about 2/3 to 1/3 for opposing war. That is why I don't think NYC knows what NYC wants. If NYC can't decide with all it's been through you can understand how the rest of the country can be in such heated debates over this very issue.

My main issue with Bush wanting to go into Iraq ia basically his true agenda. I mean he says it's to free the Iraqi people and he claims this and that but just recently I was reading an english version of a Norweigen news paper online and this weapons inspector basically said Bush was giving out "incorrect and misleading information"

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/world/article.jhtml?articleID=511811

and this is from a person who was actually in Iraq looking for these so called weapons. Plus I know from weeks and days just prior to the war it seemed you were always hearing on the news how more weapons were being destroyed. It has to raise the question just how much truthful information we the people are receiveing from opur public servants. I personally know from first hand experiance in some of the other issues I am involved in that they aren't that trustworthy to begin with. So that is why I question their true intent more then some maybe. But ask yourself why we in the states have not heard on the news about those 2 POW's that were beaten to death during itterogation? Why is it we have to go to outside news sources to learn what our government is doing. As I have indicated it all boils down to accountability. When are we going to step up and hold our own government accountable for it's actions in our name?

The truth isn't always a pretty site but I am willing to take the black eye to hold our leaders responsible for their actions.

[Catriona]

I lived and worked in Central London for a number of years.  Checking our bags at the doors of stores became second nature.  London became known as the dirtiest city in Europe - why?  Well, we had to close all the waste bins because the IRA had a delightful habit of putting bombs in them!  I lost track of the times I was evacuated from tube stations because of bombs or suspect bombs on trains, on the lines, or just left on the platforms. Often they were false alarms, but we grew used to dashing out of the stations, thinking our lives were in peril.

This started in the early 70s on mainland UK...  and of course, it was as nothing to what went on in Northern Ireland and continues to happen in that Province....

Maybe because we British are so used to terrorist actions, we seem much more sanguine than the USA...  Maybe because our parents suffered the blitz - and the USA was never bombed (I am not discounting Pearl Harbour, but that was a military installation and was not on the USA mainland) - our reactions appear muted to others.  And it is not just us in the UK, the Spanish with ETA, the Germans (some years ago) with Bader Meinhof, the Muslim groups in France....  we have ALL suffered at the hands of terrorists.

It appears that this war will not be the brief, triumphant charge to Baghdad that the Allies expected. There is resistance against our troops.  The numbers of dead soldiers is small, but it will grow every day....  

My cousin is on HMS Ark Royal.  This is his third, major conflict....  I keep him and all the forces in my thoughts.  I still believe the war was started on a pretext....  but now we are in, I cannot see any way to end it except to take Baghdad and to get rid of Hussein...   That doesn't mean I approve of the way this war was started.  I am apprehensive, because I feel that the West will rue the day we entered Iraq.

[scottish2]

Sad part is at least a percentage of UK and USA deaths are due to our own fault such as mid air crashes and missiles hitting them from our own forces and such. I mean how can this happen if everything is as modern as Bush claims.

Obviously someones sleeping at the switch and the scary part is it's not just Iraq and our own troops being misfired at it's als now Iran. How much of that do you think Iran will take?

[CelticRadio]

With all of the anti-war protest and such, it still seems that America stands firmly together on this issue. I think the latest polls show 70% of America supports the war and Bush's favorability rating has increased. These polls are collabrated by a number of media outlets who traditionally have pointed out the shortcomings with the current administration's policy.

Americans do not torture POW's and kill them execution style. These people running the Iraq regime enjoy killing, enjoy suppressing their people and model their government and way of life on Stalin.

As I said before, America is an easy target to blame or ridicule because we are an open and free society. Every man has the ability to shape their own destiny and to express their views without worry of physical or emotional harm. And it is important to note that the freedoms we so value and enjoy today were given to us by the men and women who have fought over 200 years of wars and conflicts, giving their lives and much more so that we may live free today.

Regardless of whether the War is right or wrong, I know I am supporting both our U.S. and U.K. troops. In fact, this Friday where I work we are having a fund raising effort for the families of Military personal in the Gulf and we are also making care packages for some of the troops that will be shipping out soon.

For me, I have all the regard and respect for these young men that are willing to lay down their lives, and give their lives, for what they believe is a just and worthy cause. I will not question their resolve during this time of conflict.

[scottish2]

Paul

One comment and one thing to think about.

First is on polls. I know we have had a debate on one of the news groups I am also in on how valid polls really are. For instance one poll I saw was a poll of 5000 people and they expect people to believe that can stand for the voice of 300 million people. So think about that when looking at polls take a look at the total polled before accepting it's figures as proof.

Now the coments. You said

Quote

Americans do not torture POW's and kill them execution style.

Wel this could not be further from the truth. I posted these two UK articles the other day in which 2 POW's in Afganastan were beaten to death during interrogations.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,909164,00.html

and

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=384604

This is why I have been saying throughout my posts that we have to make sure that even those in charge be held accountable for their actions and the actions of those under them. These 2 men were in fact Captured and since at least Bush considers Afganastan a war these men are her by POW's and should be accorded the protects of the Geneva Convention hence their deaths by beating during interrogation is a blatant violation of this convention and people need to be held accounable. We can not let our leaders become animals in a civilised world.

[aklassie]

I haven't posted much in this thead.  I mostly read the coments made by others and think and ponder over the well worded coments both pro and con.  Scott, you are right when you say you don't know what war is like unless you've been there.  I've seen the after math in my husband, he's a gulf war vet.  I've seen him unable to sleep because of the night mares he has from that war.  My heart and prayers go out to all our men and women both US and UK and thier families.  
I was talking with an army buddy of my husband today.  I want to share with you what he said to me.  He said he had a pretty good feeling about the last war but he has a really bad feeling about this one.  He feels that all #### is going to break lose when our troops get to Bagdad.  He's had 12 years to get ready for this.  What if my friend's right?  What's going to happen to this country (USA)?  I just have a VERY bad feeling.