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> What Does "cut And Run. . .", really mean?
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 28-Jun-2006, 09:19 PM
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I thought this might be interesting to think about:

Both "cut and run," and "stay the course" are phrases from the days of sailing ships.
And they are DEFINITELY NOT opposites.

The strategy of 'cut and run' refers to cutting the anchor rope, raising sail, and sailing before the wind (running) to take the most direct course out of trouble. Picture yourself as captain of a full rigged sailing ship. Running is sailing with the wind behind you so that your square sails are all full, and the ship sails straight up. Running allows your square-rigged ship to sail with the lowest apparent wind and the flattest angle from vertical. It is your ship's fastest point of sail, but can be tricky to steer a straight course since the rudder gives little feedback to the helmsman.

You cut and run when you see a storm coming. If you saw an enemy coming while you were at anchor you would also 'cut and run'. Check out all the paintings of naval battles. You will notice that in general, the ships are taking advantage of being under sail to out-maneuver the the enemy. They aren't just sitting at anchor, waiting for the enemy to take them out. And they aren't wasting time hauling up the anchor; they have gotten underway at once.

The opposite of 'cut and run' then isn't to stay the course. The opposite of 'cut and run' is to stupidly remain at anchor, doing nothing while trouble approaches, or to waste time trying to save a relatively cheap anchor and ending up losing the boat, crew, the cargo and the war.


Whole article here:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/17/7386/27743
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Aaediwen 
Posted: 29-Jun-2006, 10:27 AM
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Interesting it is smile.gif


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Posted: 29-Jun-2006, 03:14 PM
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Well now that's interesting reading. Very appropriate.


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MacEoghainn 
Posted: 29-Jun-2006, 06:31 PM
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lol.gif lol.gif lol.gif lol.gif lol.gif You libs are so funny when you start trying to redefine the meaning of words. By the way, did you ever settle on the definition of "is"? rolleyes.gif


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stevenpd 
Posted: 29-Jun-2006, 07:29 PM
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Here's another take on the two phrases:

Urban Dictionary

cut and run

Originally a nautical term. When a sailing ship faced danger and needed to depart quickly, the rigging and anchor would be cut and the ship would run with the wind. More recently it has come to mean desert, retreat, or run away.

"When we were all out in the raw air and were steadily moving towards our business, I treasonably whispered to Joe, 'I hope, Joe, we shan't find them.' and Joe whispered to me, 'I'd give a shilling if they had cut and run, Pip."
Charles Dickens in Great Expectations

"The United States doesn't cut and run. When we make a commitment, we keep our commitments" President G.W. Bush (March, 2006)


The Word Detective

Waist deep in the Big Muddy.

Dear Word Detective: An American friend of mine and I, a Canadian, are both puzzled by this vogue phrase "stay the course." I seem to recall hearing it used often in England, and not just by a visiting president. Does it have fox-hunting roots or humbler equestrian origins of the steeplechase variety? My friend takes a slightly different tack and looks at the ostensibly contrary "stay of execution" and "stay put" as a state of suspended activity. We have both been living in Brazil for many years, and the American dictionaries that we have perused seem to be at an equal loss for explanation. Could you help us out? I think this phrase is going to be with us, until at least November, and, perhaps, much longer. -- Steve Crickmore and George Roberts.

I fear that you're right, and, in any case, the phrase itself will no doubt be trotted out the next time a politician insists on pursuing a course of action with which a substantial number of constituents disagree. On the bright side, most commentators have dropped that obnoxious "at the end of the day" chestnut, and even the most jaded talking heads, thankfully, now shy away from invoking "the light at the end of the tunnel."

"To stay the course," in current usage, means "to stand firm in pursuing a goal or course of action, to persevere in the face of whatever challenges or obstacles one may encounter." The use of "stay" in the phrase can be, as you note, a bit confusing, since "to stay" can mean "to stop, arrest or check" (as in "stay of execution," in which a court issues a legal "stay" to stop an action), as well as "to continue or persist in a place or condition" (as in "stay calm"). But we're definitely seeing "stay" in the "persist" sense here.

"To stay the course" is often thought to be a nautical metaphor, and one can easily imagine a stalwart captain instructing a wavering helmsman to "Stay the course!" in the face of a stormy sea.

But the first use of the phrase in print, in 1885, comes from another sort of "course," the racetrack. "To stay the course" in this sense referred to the ability of a horse to endure the race and reach the finish line, preferably in a winning position. By 1916, however, the phrase had been adopted by politicians, and we've been urged to "stay the course" ever since.


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stoirmeil 
Posted: 01-Jul-2006, 04:50 PM
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QUOTE (MacEoghainn @ 29-Jun-2006, 06:31 PM)
lol.gif  lol.gif  lol.gif  lol.gif  lol.gif  You libs are so funny when you start trying to redefine the meaning of words. By the way, did you ever settle on the definition of "is"? rolleyes.gif

Words morph naturally over time. Getting back to the original definitions of an expression can shed a little light on the motivations of users who grab them by the backs of their little verbal necks and morph them forcibly/illogically into durance vile, until their own dictionary mama wouldn't recognize them. Orwell had something to say about the process -- he called it "doublespeak."

"Is" isn't the problem here. Certain other forms of the root concept "to be" -- "to become" and "to remain" -- are, however, being stressed to the screaming point. smile.gif
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stevenpd 
Posted: 01-Jul-2006, 05:16 PM
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Obviously the use of euphemisms is nothing new for anyone. It just provides an opportunity to obfuscate and redirect an argument away from the essence of a topic or discussion.

Wikipedia

QUOTE
Doublespeak
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doublespeak is language deliberately constructed to disguise or distort its actual meaning, often resulting in a "communication bypass". Such language is associated with governmental, military, and corporate institutions. Doublespeak may be in the form of bald euphemisms ("downsizing" for "firing of many employees") or deliberately ambiguous phrases ("wet work" for "assassination"). Doublespeak is distinguished from other euphemisms through its deliberate usage by governmental, military, or corporate institutions.

History

The word doublespeak was coined in the early 1950s. It is often incorrectly attributed to George Orwell and his dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four. The word actually never appears in that novel; Orwell did, however, coin newspeak, oldspeak, and doublethink, and his novel made fashionable composite nouns with speak as the second element, which were previously unknown in English. It was therefore just a matter of time before someone came up with doublespeak. Doublespeak may be considered, in Orwell's lexicography, as the B vocabulary of Newspeak, words "deliberately constructed for political purposes: words, that is to say, which not only had in every case a political implication, but were intended to impose a desirable mental attitude upon the person using them."
[edit]

Examples of doublespeak in current usage

Doublespeak is most reminiscent of Orwell's "newspeak" when it is used by a government agency to cover up something unpleasant. The government may find the need to talk about something that has negative connotations to large portions of the public, and avoids backlash by replacing the term with a new one that most people will not recognize as the same thing. Thus "area denial munitions" means "landmines", "physical persuasion" means "torture", and "operational exhaustion" means "shell shock". A stray 2,000-pound bomb causes "a significant emotional event for anyone within a square mile." Government doublespeak can also involve simple euphemisms, like "wet work" meaning "assassination", or, more recently, the US Government's use of "extraordinary rendition" for "transporting a person to another country with fewer human rights laws for the purpose of torture."

Doublespeak was very common in the Third Reich. Goebbels' Reichsministerium für Volksaufklärung und Propaganda (Ministry of the Reich for Public Enlightenment and Propaganda) coined thousands of new German words. Other examples include "concentration camp" (labor/death camp, or "joycamp" in Newspeak), "protective custody" (imprisonment without due process of law), "Heim ins Reich" (occupation of Austria), and particular new meanings for "volk" (people) and "rasse" (race).

A prominent example of doublespeak in the corporate world is the number of different phrases that all describe the action of "firing lots of employees", usually obliquely. These phrases include "layoffs," "downsizing," "right-sizing," "headcount adjustment," "RIF" (reduction in force), and "realignment." The Dilbert comic strip satirizes this in one strip in which an employee understands none of these terms and is unable to figure out that he has been fired. Corporate doublespeak can also involve downplaying problems, such as calling a fix for a software bug a "reliability enhancement."

Police and court officers use jargon and terms of art that can be seen as doublespeak when they are used to cover up brutality or corruption. "Fines on the spot," for example, are bribes taken during traffic stops (though ironically the Blair administration of the British government used the same term genuinely to describe fines for anti-social behaviour). What police call "aggressive enforcement" may be called "racial profiling" by others. To "pacify" someone, euphemistically, is to subdue him by force. In some instances, such as in the "dirty 39th" Precinct in Philadelphia, this term has been used for excessive and unjustified force.

When illegal activity is routine, it often acquires its own specific jargon. For example, the term "black-bag operations" was used by the FBI to describe illegal break-ins in the 1970s. Mostly, such terms are an informal code, similar to thieves' cant, intended to be used and understood only by fellow-conspirators.
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 01-Jul-2006, 05:43 PM
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QUOTE (stevenpd @ 01-Jul-2006, 05:16 PM)
Obviously the use of euphemisms is nothing new for anyone.  It just provides an opportunity to obfuscate and redirect an argument away from the essence of a topic or discussion.

Right you are. And I must say, I was not aware that "doublespeak" per se was not Orwell's coinage (it must be 30 years since I read 1984), but it is in perfect keeping with the words he did coin, and it seems doublespeak came into use just a couple of years after the novel came out in 1949, right before he died. I would guess it had immediate cold-war military and government applications.

So -- to get back to "cut and run" -- there has been a qualitative emotional change that seems to have something to do with how one interprets getting out of the way of costly and avoidable harm. Cutting anchor and letting the ship run with the wind, in the original sense, could be fleeing, or it could be a tactical manoeuver in the battle. Either way, it does not seem to be connected specifically with cowardice, but rather with preservation of resources (losing an anchor to save a whole ship and crew) until there's a better advantage. It seems to have a great deal more to do with matters of honor and appearances before world opinion nowadays -- frequently the stated reasoning is we don't "cut and run" because it "sends a message" that we are easily overwhelmed. Of course, if an enemy's manipulation of good or bad world opinion is a concrete, demonstrable weapon, this is smart to worry about. One would want to see some hard, level-headed analysis to prove it, but if so, well and good. If not, the evolved usage could be tremendously wrongheaded and wasteful, used as a whip to flog policy.
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SCShamrock 
Posted: 01-Jul-2006, 10:58 PM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 28-Jun-2006, 09:19 PM)
The opposite of 'cut and run' then isn't to stay the course. The opposite of 'cut and run' is to stupidly remain at anchor, doing nothing while trouble approaches, or to waste time trying to save a relatively cheap anchor and ending up losing the boat, crew, the cargo and the war.

So what course is a ship supposedly on when the anchor is dropped? I find this a pitiful reach. So sad.


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stoirmeil 
Posted: 01-Jul-2006, 11:25 PM
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QUOTE (SCShamrock @ 01-Jul-2006, 10:58 PM)
So what course is a ship supposedly on when the anchor is dropped? I find this a pitiful reach. So sad.

I think that's the point, Rob. "Being at anchor" does mean having no course. But "cutting and running" AND "staying the course" both mean being in motion, with some kind of goal or strategy or purpose in mind; so from a literal and by extension linguistic standpoint at least they aren't opposites. Therefore they probably shouldn't be opposed to each other metaphorically either, in policy rhetoric. That is the meaning of the article.

You see? No need to be sad. smile.gif
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MacEoghainn 
Posted: 02-Jul-2006, 10:45 AM
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Just a cursory search of the web produced the following:


“Stay the Course”

From Dictionary.com
1)stay the course: To hold out or persevere to the end of a race or challenge.2)stay the course: Hold or persevere to the end, as in No, he's not resigning; he's going to stay the course. This metaphoric expression, alluding to a horse running an entire race, was first recorded in 1916.

From The Word Detective
"To stay the course," in current usage, means "to stand firm in pursuing a goal or course of action, to persevere in the face of whatever challenges or obstacles one may encounter." The use of "stay" in the phrase can be, as you note, a bit confusing, since "to stay" can mean "to stop, arrest or check" (as in "stay of execution," in which a court issues a legal "stay" to stop an action), as well as "to continue or persist in a place or condition" (as in "stay calm"). But we're definitely seeing "stay" in the "persist" sense here.
"To stay the course" is often thought to be a nautical metaphor, and one can easily imagine a stalwart captain instructing a wavering helmsman to "Stay the course!" in the face of a stormy sea.
But the first use of the phrase in print, in 1885, comes from another sort of "course," the racetrack. "To stay the course" in this sense referred to the ability of a horse to endure the race and reach the finish line, preferably in a winning position. By 1916, however, the phrase had been adopted by politicians, and we've been urged to "stay the course" ever since.

“Cut and Run”

From Dictionary.com
cut and run: Clear out, escape, desert, as in He wished he could just cut and run. This term originally (about 1700) meant to cut a vessel's anchor cable and make sail at once. By the mid-1800s it was being used figuratively. Charles Dickens had it in Great Expectations (1861): "I'd give a shilling if they had cut and run." Also see cut out, def. 7.


From The Word Detective:
One might imagine a number of possible sources for the "cut" of "cut and run," and your guess about "cut your losses" (to cease or quit a hopeless enterprise or situation before losses become greater) is a good one. But the roots of "cut and run" actually lie in the days of sailing ships. A ship at anchor coming under sudden attack by the enemy, rather than waste valuable time in the laborious task of hoisting its anchor, would sacrifice the anchor by cutting the cable, allowing the ship to get under sail and escape the attack quickly. "To cut and run" was thus an accepted military tactic in emergencies, and the phrase itself dates to at least the early 1700s. By the mid-1800s, "cut and run" was in common use as a metaphor for abruptly giving up an endeavor in the face of difficulty, and appears in non-nautical context in Dickens's 1861 novel Great Expectations.

From Wiktionary.org:

cut and run (cut and ran, cut and run)
1) (military) To abandon a position as quickly as possible. “They held on as long as they could, but when the heavy artillery fire started, they had to cut and run.”

If I understand the redefining of these phrases from their current common usage by our liberal friends correctly then I must assume they would also have us believe that when King Arthur, in the movie “Monty Python and the Holy Grail “, (played by the late, great, Graham Chapman) shouts “Run away, run away!!”, what he really meant to say was: “Gentleman, I believe we should tactically redeploy our forces to Diego Garcia”.

They can play these semantics games all they want, but fact remains their only answer to the challenges that face us is retreat and/or surrender. rolleyes.gif
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CelticCoalition 
Posted: 03-Jul-2006, 11:33 AM
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Ok, I'm sorry to sound caustic, but this whole thread sounds like a bunch of doublespeak and silliness. I thought the original point was decent, and if I read it right the point was that cutting and running isn't always a losing situation. Basically cut your losses and get out before you lose everything.

Now it's just a bunch of gibberish about the phrase "cut and run." Honestly, cut and run can mean either run away scared OR it can mean getting out of a stagnant position into a better one.

Why don't we all just say what we are really trying to say? The left position here is that getting out the war would be cutting the anchor and actually moving forward instead of sitting there doing nothing. The right position is that cutting and running is leaving before the job is done and that we are currently moving forward in the war.

Man, this thread is more cryptic and circular than washington right now.
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 04-Jul-2006, 01:20 PM
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QUOTE (CelticCoalition @ 03-Jul-2006, 11:33 AM)
Honestly, cut and run can mean either run away scared OR it can mean getting out of a stagnant position into a better one.

Why don't we all just say what we are really trying to say? The left position here is that getting out the war would be cutting the anchor and actually moving forward instead of sitting there doing nothing. The right position is that cutting and running is leaving before the job is done and that we are currently moving forward in the war.


The point was not to comment on actual war policy per se, in either direction. The point was to look at the way an old linguistic expression has evolved and the way it is being currently used, and see whether reflecting on its original meaning is interesting or useful, or a means of resisting automatic, uncritical responses, and so forth. To the extent that some fairly important policy appears to be driven by the repetition of key phrases that are intended to have an instantaneous and mostly emotional effect, it's not a useless exercise. But it's still not a prescription of what to do.
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MacEoghainn 
Posted: 04-Jul-2006, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 04-Jul-2006, 02:20 PM)
The point was not to comment on actual war policy per se, in either direction.  The point was to look at the way an old linguistic expression has evolved and the way it is being currently used, and see whether reflecting on its original meaning is interesting or useful, or a means of resisting automatic, uncritical responses, and so forth.  To the extent that some fairly important policy appears to be driven by the repetition of key phrases that are intended to have an instantaneous and mostly emotional effect, it's not a useless exercise.  But it's still not a prescription of what to do.

unsure.gif

If somebody could translate that for me I'd appreciate it since I'm just a dumb ol' "Backwoods Hick" without much "book learnin". cowboy.gif

And while you're at it how about translating this for me too?

Scintillate, scintillate, globule vivific!
In vain do I ponder thy nature specific--
Precariously poised in the ether capacious,
Closely resembling a gem carbonaceous;
Scintillate, scintillate, globule vivific,
In vain do I ponder thy nature specific! biggrin.gif


If one reads the entire post in the blog referenced at the beginning of this thread it is obvious that the author is trying change the direction of the debate by altering the meaning of the two metaphors (oops, I used a big word, here's a definition or two: metaphor, 1 a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable (e.g. food for thought). 2 a thing symbolic of something else), "Cut and Run" and "Stay the Course", from what is commonly accepted to something else, in the guise of being historically accurate. This is a typical maneuver for some on the left. Change the subject, declare victory, and then run home (hmmmmm...., that theory sounds suspiciously like their war plan)!
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 04-Jul-2006, 09:49 PM
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That's a clever paraphrase of "twinkle, twinkle little star," which incidentally isn't your paraphrase, so you ought to cite the author as you usually do when you use quotes to pad the content of your posts. You're also falling back on inverted snobbery, which is a lame form of insult and doesn't really fool anyone.

And you are assuming something in error: you are assuming that I am interested in doing more than I said at first, which is to look at the way the meaning has changed, and throw in a reminder of what it meant in the beginning. I am not interested in doing more than that. If it suggests anything, as I think it might, it will show itself.

For what reason am I doing this? Throwing in that reminder may shed some light on what is usually called a "dead metaphor," one that is no longer calling its literal meaning to mind. (I'm guessing you can handle the word "metaphor," since you used it yourself. I'm pretty sure you know what "dead" means.) You need to look at the original meaning to bring a dead metaphor back to life. Policy makers are using the dead metaphor "cut and run" very often lately, which you must admit, and it seems they are doing so with the intent to convince people of their policy decisions by bringing up feelings of potential shame. Bringing up and using those feelings to make decisions may not be a valid thing to do, because feelings are not facts or logic. So using "cut and run" that way may not be in the service of either the people or the language itself. That is what this thread has been looking at.

That should be clear. I think what you really don't understand is why anyone should care how language is being used, as long as the administration gets its way in policy matters. Can't help you there. smile.gif
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