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> God, and science
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Celtic cat 
Posted: 06-Oct-2005, 03:45 PM
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I have decided to quote Haldur since he brought this up in a separate topic, and my story didn't fit there.

Quote: Haldur:
"The scientific community would have you believe to look at nature as evidence to "natural selection" and "The Big Bang theory" which are solely based on impirical evidence, or, that which can be seen, heard, felt, etc. The scientific community has for years attempted to discount religious fact for impirical theory so that their systems can be accepted, thus leading to mankind being in control rather than God being in control."


I have developed the opinion that the scientific community and Christians can live together without argument. This is why. Consider the "Big Bang". Most Christians don't like this proposal because it contradicts the idea that God is in control. Now very important...God IS in control. Why is it not possible that God in his infinite wisdom couldn't have created the "big bang". To think about this with an open mind one cannot take the bible literally. So the bible begins..."God Created Heaven and Earth". Who can possibly prove what creating heaven and earth looks like. None of us know, so this creation very well could have in fact been the "big bang". Also , for all those other religious/science contraditions ...keep in mind that God is not bound by time. Just think about it. I could explain how God could have controlled evolution, if anyone is interested, but I will wait for you to ask.


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CelticCoalition 
Posted: 06-Oct-2005, 04:00 PM
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I completely agree with you here Celtic Cat. I think for far too long science and religion have butted heads needlessly. The fact that science explains something doesn't discount religion. A physics teacher explained it this way to me in high school.

Science explains the what and how, religion explains the why.

The creation of heaven and earth. Science explains this with the big bang. Religion explains that God did this to make a home for people. So what if the bible didn't explain the physics and everything of how and what happened when the universe was created? Does that mean science is wrong? Does is make science more right? No.

If you need science to explain your religion, then you don't have much faith. Science doesn't even disprove God. It just explains how and what happens in the world in a scientific language. It no more disproves God than Spanish disproves French.


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oldraven 
Posted: 06-Oct-2005, 04:09 PM
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Over the last few years, I've come to the understanding that many scientific theories of origin are not refuting creationism. Rather they unlock some of the secrets to his method. wink.gif

The more complicated the universe gets, the more probable it is that the universe was designed; not a fluke.

Einstein said something to the effect of "The more I understand about the universe, the more it proves God exists."

Some other actual quotes by Einstein on God.

"I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."

"I am convinced that He (God) does not play dice." (this one in particular aligns with my belief)

"God is subtle but he is not malicious."

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

"God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically."

"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods."

"In order to form an immaculate member of a flock of sheep one must, above all, be a sheep."

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind." (WOO HOO! Keep 'em comin' Bert)

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge."

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton)

I'm reading many of these for the first time myself. Amazingly, Einstein's views of our world and its world are frighteningly parallel to my own. Please read them. They are truley beautiful.

http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/Eins...teinQuotes.html


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SCShamrock 
Posted: 06-Oct-2005, 06:17 PM
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Cat,

That which you are referring to: the coexistence of God and science, is an idea most often suggested by devout Christians. However, some in the scientific community, Stephen Hawkings being the power hitter here, also believe that God's existence better answers some of the holes, or vacancies within their own theories. Now when you discuss this with Atheists, or those who staunchly defend science in place of God, you will encounter some serious opposition. There are even websites that teach someone how to rebut a person who makes reference to God using the "big bang", and "evolutionary process" as a method for His creation. I saw another one just earlier today, but unfortunately I didn't save it. Sorry.

The discussion is a wonderful one to have, and one that I think the people here could carry on with mutual respect. I'll do my best over the next few days to dredge up some information I have found over the last year or so. Hopefully it will add something of value.


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Education: that which reveals to the wise, and conceals from the stupid, the vast limits of their knowledge.
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Celtic cat 
Posted: 08-Oct-2005, 01:53 PM
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Hey guys thanks for all the responses, and Oldraven thanks for the Einstein quotes I love him. Hopefully Haldur isn't mad at me for using his quote as a basis for argument. smile.gif
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anhrefn 
Posted: 08-Oct-2005, 03:38 PM
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there's a really great book you might be interested in reading. it's called 'the rebirth of nature: the greening of science and god' by rupert sheldrake, a biologist from the uk.


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pkalexander 
Posted: 08-Oct-2005, 05:17 PM
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I've long been a firm believer that when the scientists and the mystics get to the mountain top they will laugh at how close they have been. It seems that the more we learn scientifically the more it coincides with what is made manifest by the Spirit.

Good topic.
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SCShamrock 
Posted: 09-Oct-2005, 09:01 AM
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Cat,

I did a fair bit of research on this subject earlier this year, but I have also done a system recovery on my machine so some things weren't saved-----I think this information is some of that.

Anyway, I did remember some of the websites that I visited, and here they are:

http://www.godandscience.org/

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/6562/

http://www.crosscurrents.org/darwin.htm
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j Padraig moore 
Posted: 10-Oct-2005, 10:52 AM
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I have to agree with the comments here - why couldn't God have jumpstarted the creation with a big bang? Why couldn't God have directed the development (creation) of different species via evolution?

I hear constantly the arguments between scientists and creationists. This weekend the wife and I got into a pretty heated discussion regarding the concept that death could not have existed before the Fall in the Garden of Eden. The Bible states that there was no death prior to Adam and Eve's sin. Therefore there could be no death, that is of dinosaurs, etc before the Fall.

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SCShamrock 
Posted: 10-Oct-2005, 12:42 PM
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QUOTE (j Padraig moore @ 10-Oct-2005, 10:52 AM)
I have to agree with the comments here - why couldn't God have jumpstarted the creation with a big bang? Why couldn't God have directed the development (creation) of different species via evolution?


There is no good reason that God, in the way in which most religions proclaim him to be "All Powerful", couldn't use the big bang or natural selection, evolution, ect., as his method for creation.


Here is some more interesting material to peruse.

http://www.philosophyclass.com/metaphysics.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/101...9/Fallacies.htm
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reddrake79 
Posted: 15-Oct-2005, 10:08 AM
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I am a science teacher that believes in an all powerfull God, Could God have used evolution-sure he is all powerfull. Did he? Let God answer that one. In Genesis God said he created the earth in Six Days. Evolution, according to its proponents, needs a much longer period of time. (billions of years) The battle isnt between science and Christian beliefs. The battle is between two beliefs, Bible based and man based.
I have seen this bumber sticker "I believe in the Bing bang- God spoke and bang it happened" The big bang was originally used to disprove the Bibles account of creation and to say that there isnt a God, that is why so many christians reject the idea. I do not believe you can seperate your beliefs from science. Everyone carries there beliefs around with them and interprets what they see with their beliefs. Besides a lot of the evidences for evolution don't exist. Were are all the transitional fossils? radiometric dating is not reliable. All the "apeman" fossils have been reclassified as either fully ape or fully man or a hoax. Christian Scientists are making many advances with their research. two institutions- Insitute For Creation Research, and Answers in Genesis are making great strides in informing people about their findings.
Natural selection, survival of the fitess- does not lead to evolution. Ill leave it at this for now.


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oldraven 
Posted: 17-Oct-2005, 09:00 AM
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QUOTE (reddrake79 @ 15-Oct-2005, 08:08 AM)
In Genesis God said he created the earth in Six Days.  Evolution, according to its proponents, needs a much longer period of time.  (billions of years) The battle isnt between science and Christian beliefs.  The battle is between two beliefs, Bible based and man based.

In this case, I think it's a battle of terminology and assumed definitions. smile.gif

QUOTE
Natural selection, survival of the fitess- does not lead to evolution. Ill leave it at this for now.


It does account for micro-evolution, which I believe is the only form of evolution that has occured. Forget about transitional fossils, where are the transitional species today? We still have apes, and we've got men, but never have I seen an apeman in my life. There is no denying that humanity has changed over even the last century, due to micro-evolution. But that will never make a connection between man and monkey. Just this age of Man and that.
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reddrake79 
Posted: 17-Oct-2005, 09:47 PM
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Ill agree with the comment about assumed definitions.

let's define evolution-a theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations (as defined by miriam webster online)

What evolution has occured in humans?
normally evolution inplies that new genetic information is appearing in species.


The genetic information in man has always been there. No new info has appeared over the years. Currently it is distributed differently than in the past.

This is why I don't like using the term micro-evolution, but "speciation"

I know I am being nitpicky, but I think this term more adequatly describes how we get different species. And I dont want anyone thinking that I am talking about traditional evolution.
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oldraven 
Posted: 18-Oct-2005, 08:55 AM
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Well, I actually don't believe Speciation and Microevolution are one in the same. Speciation actually is a part of Macroevolution. One species becoming another. Micro emplies the adaption of a species to a changing environment. Such as, humans have been getting taller. They aren't turning into giraffes, just getting taller. wink.gif

Anyway, we're drifting from the topic. biggrin.gif
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oldraven 
Posted: 18-Oct-2005, 09:46 AM
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I stumbled upon this and had to post it here. laugh.gif



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