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| Celtic Radio Community > Politics & Current Events > Terry Schiavo |
| Posted by: Macfive 26-Mar-2005, 06:19 AM |
| What is everyone thinking about the Terry Schiavo case in Florida. Seems to be galvanizing the nation and prompting some very strong responses. |
| Posted by: cwa92464 26-Mar-2005, 08:04 AM |
| I am sure that I will catch flames for this, but this is my opinion: 1. Always have a WRITTEN living will that states your intentions and keep two copies in different locations--no not the bedroom and bathroom. 2. I wouldn't choose to be in that state; however, without a living will, I believe the tube should be inserted & the parents allowed to care for her. 3. Why the epiphany years after the fact by Michael S? Maybe we can ask the adulterers "girlfriend" and "kids." 4. If in fact this is her wish to die, then let's not sit for days on end as she has a "peaceful" death. Michael wants her to die, then he should be given the means and a deadline to kill her or to shut the hell up. I don't believe this is a "peaceful" death. Try going without eating a few days. Don't you just feel all warm inside?? Those starving in Africa must be pretty blissful. Why do we think they are in dire straits when they are starving and Terri is having the "time of her life" as she starves. Mixed messages to me. |
| Posted by: Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 26-Mar-2005, 09:17 AM | ||
No flames from me. Having read all the recent judicial opinions, I can't help but wonder whether Mr. Schiavo is a coward who is not doing right by either his current wife or his girl-friend, who seems likely to become his wife as soon as he disposes of Mrs. Schiavo. It seems like the honorable thing for him to do would have been to divorce her, and surrender the guardianship to her parents long ago. Many years ago, before I gave up the practice of law and went into legal publishing, I noticed a striking pattern in divorce cases. I was working in a legal services office handling domestic relations cases. During interviews with many of the women who were seeking a divorce, I discovered that many decided to seek a divorce only after a new boyfriend decided it was time to get married. The fact that Mr. Schiavo waited until he had a new family before seeking to have the feeding tube removed strongly suggests to me that his motivation derives more from his new relationship than from any feelings for his wife. |
| Posted by: Swanny 26-Mar-2005, 11:18 AM |
| I fall into the opposite camp on this. Early in my career as a paramedic I worked for a company that specialized in interfacility transfers. I've transported similar patients back and forth and back and forth and back and forth from the nursing home to the hospital to the doctor's office to........ I made my wages, the ambulance company made money, the nursing home made money, the hosptial and doctors all made money, and the patients stayed the same until their bodies finally gave out. I've looked at the video, I've surfed http://www.terrisfight.org and done whatever else I can to become informed. Mrs. Shiavo's CT scan was shown on a special about her case on one of the educational channels the other night, and it clearly scan shows such extensive brain damage that it's miraculous that the brain stem is even functioning enough to keep respiratory and cardiac function intact. I'm convinced that Terri Schindler is indeed in a so-called "persistent vegetative state". He brain is mush, and the onlything that is going to improve her condition is a miracle. Terri Schiavo is no longer residing in that body, and hasn't resided in there for a long, long time. That being the case and with no advanced directives from the patient, then it falls upon the patient's spouse to make her medical decisions. If there is no living spouse then the decision falls upon adult siblings. If there are not adult siblings then, and only then, does the decision fall to the parents. I understand that is the law in Florida. This isn't rocket surgery. This isn't something new, it's a situation that plays out thousands of times each year in the United States. The only thing new about the Schiavo case is that media has advertised it the public has embraced it, and in order to support their own pro-life agenda the "good Christians" have decided to demonize Michael and make this the issue of the week. My heart goes out to the Schindlers family. They have been grasping at straws for so long now, have endured more than any family should have to endure, but I'm not willing to change the law in oder to ease their pain. Part of life is coping with pain and sorrow. My heart also goes out to Michael Shiavo. I am amazed that so many allegedly "good Christians" who don't know this man, will never meet this man, and who are basing their actions solely on hearsay and second hand allegations that the courts have long ago found not credible have decided to judge him, vilify him, demonize him, and have done everything except burn him at the cross (though I understand that one self described "Christian" fellow did try to steal a gun in order to murder Mr. Schiavo, thus "saving Terri"). I thought the Christian Bible said something about "Judge not lest ye also be judged". I thought that Jesus himself admonished the self-righteous to be careful judging others, saying "He among you who is without sin, cast the first stone." Apparently I was mistaken. I thought good Christians were opposed to divorce, but apparently I was mistaken. I now see they are opposed to divorce only so long as the married parties make decisions of which they approve. Good Christians can apparently support divorce if it will further their "cause". I thought Christians were basically good, forgiving and generous people willing to help ease the suffering of others. Judging from what I've been hearing coming from good Christian mouths on the talk shows, television, and newspaper reports for the past weeks I was clearly mistaken about that. Quite frankly, if the actions of those opposed to Mr. Shiavo's position are the measure of good Christian charity and behavior then I want nothing to do with it at all and I will pray that God save and protect me from His alleged followers. Swanny |
| Posted by: Shadows 26-Mar-2005, 09:55 PM |
| Swanny I am in total agrement with you on this.... I want to add one thing though... Terry's own actions put her in this state, she was bolimic (sp), her eating disorder ( as some will call it ) caused her heart to malfunction and her brain to die, this was something she brought on herself and her family. Now the nation is also having to suffer as another rift is opened that never should have gone this far. Does the name Karen Ann Quinlin ring a bell for anyone? This nation went through this several decades ago... it brought about the living will laws and the current laws on who has legal rights to make medical decissions fo those unable to do so. |
| Posted by: Shamalama 28-Mar-2005, 02:25 PM |
| Brother Shadows is correct in this little-reported fact: Terri brought this upon herself. Terri suffered from an eating disorder known as bulimia. The disease causes its victims to overeat and soon thereafter vomit. The cycle of binging and purging is extremely dangerous. The human heart, to work properly, requires a balance of the body's electrolytes. Vomiting can upset the electrolyte balance and cause abnormal heart rhythms that can lead to heart attack. That is what happened to Terri. One night Terri purged, which caused her potassium level to drop low enough to cause a heart attack. Before fire rescue arrived and took her to the hospital, Terri's brain had been deprived of oxygen for long enough to produce catastrophic brain damage. She essentially died but was resuscitated, though not entirely. This is the exact point when, I think both sides would agree, that Terri should have been left alone, but with all the tumultous emotions it becomes so very difficult to make the "right" decision. Her brain had suffered enormous damage from the heart attack. As time passed, her brain further deteriorated to the point where much if not most of her cerebral cortex (the portion of the brain that controls conscious thought, among other things) was literally gone, replaced by spinal fluid. That's right - her skull is filled mostly with fluid. In November 1992, a jury in Clearwater returned a verdict in favor of Terri and Michael Schiavo for more than $6.8-million. The jury found that Terri had been the victim of substandard medical care that caused, in part, her coma. The jury also found that Terri was partly at fault and the verdict was reduced accordingly, to about $2-million. Since 1990, she has lived in nursing homes with constant care. She is fed and hydrated by tubes. The staff changes her diapers regularly. She has had numerous health problems, but none have been life threatening. There have been a number of trials on this issue. Both sides were given opportunities to present their views and the evidence supporting those views. Multiple courts determined that, even applying the "clear and convincing evidence" standard - the highest burden of proof used in civil cases - the evidence showed that Terri would not wish to continue life-prolonging measures. Whether we like it or not, whether the Governor of Florida likes it or not, whether the Pope likes it or not, the evidence showed that Terri would not wish to continue life-prolonging measures, and those are defined in Florida law as, among other things, "artificially provided sustenance and hydration". Michael lacks the power to undo the court order determining Terri's wishes and requiring the removal of her feeding tube. He did not make the decision and cannot unmake it. The court made the decision on Terri's behalf. Please read this again: The court made the decision on Terri's behalf. It is difficult for any physician to determine whether this poor woman is feeling any pain. The regions of the brain which are largely responsible for processing pain stimuli are approximately midway between the upper and lower brain regions and no type of brain scan or EEG can be helpful in determining her level of pain. Unfortunately, if there is any pain, then she likely has great difficulty in communicating to others that she is in pain/distress, which for all we know might be severe and excruciating. Since she cannot communicate consistantly with her loved ones, what if she's been in excruciating pain for most of the last 15 years? Terri is not being "allowed to die". Terri is not dying from anything other than a lack of food and water, from which any of the rest of us would die. She is not dying a natural death. She is being killed. No different than some of the Jews in Nazi Germany. The only question is "Can she feel it?" In determining the degree of medical intervention, it is best, in my mind, that any physician ignore political and religious dogma, set aside the political ramifications of this case, forget any ulterior financial motives and the adultery of Terri Schiavo?s husband, and honestly try to determine what is the most decent, humane and compassionate approach to take with this fellow human being, Terri Schiavo. We should ignore political and religious dogma too. According to the Pinellas County Animal Services Sec. 14-32. "Cruelty to animals": "(a) Whoever impounds or confines any animal in any place and fails to supply the animal during such confinement with a sufficient quantity of good and wholesome food and water shall be in violation of this article." It goes on to give the penalties for such a violation. In our modern day realization that the electric chair and gas chamber were cruel and unusual punishment we now afford heinous criminals the dignity to die quick and without pain. Yet one of our most vulnerable, helpless citizens of this country who has far more worth than a dog and who has committed no crime has not been affordrd this humane treatment. How can we look other countries in the eye and accuse them of human rights violations? Carla Sauer Iyer, a nurse who attended Mrs. Schiavo for more than a year, said in a sworn statement that she reported to the police that she had found Terri in both medical and emotional distress after a closed door visit by her husband - and that she also found a vial of insulin, as well as needle marks on Terri, after Michael Schiavo's visit. Why didn't this factiod make it to the mainstream media? There is a link here to abortion with all its ugly political and moral mess. There are many that are demanding Terri to be left on the feeding tube that also are demanding that abortion be made illegal. And there are many that are both wanting Terri to be left alone to die and also are wanting mothers to be left alone to do what they want with their bodies. It is this unspoken subtext that has added so much fuel to this issue. Did the courts and medical staff slowly kill her when they removed her feeding tube, or did they simply allow her to do what she already started to do 15 years ago? I don't know. I do find strange the left's argument that we should not do everything medically possible to keep her breathing. Don't the paramedics do this everyday when they're doing CPR on a non-breathing injury victim? To follow the logic that doctors shouldn't use every possible life-maintaining procedure on Terri should also indicate that we shouldn't use every possible life-maintaining procedure for other people, meaning we could close most of the Emergency Rooms in this country. Or is it your arguement that Terri has "outlived" the necessity of life-maintaining procedures where someone in the ER "still has a chance for a quality life"? I would certainly hope no one here at CelticRadio would assume the mantle of Arbiter of Defining the Quality of Life. Supposedly Governor Jeb Bush tried to send a group of agents to "take Schiavo into state custody", even though that would go against court order. Several years ago Attorney General Janet Reno sent a group of agents to "take Elian Gonzales into federal custody", even though that went against court order. I didn't like it when Reno did it, and I wouldn't like it if Bush did it. Damn it, we are a nation of laws, not religion nor emotion - from either the left or the right. If this really steams you, or really sticks in your gut, then show your disapproval next time at the voting booths. You can't fault the state-appointed courts if you didn't vote for your representative in the first place. I don't like any of this. I cannot stand to watch the continued video of her sullen face looking helplessly around her. I don't know if she sees anything, or is mentally crying for help. I don't know if she is in fits of hunger pains, or feels absolutely nothing. Personally I don't care if Michael gets run over by a car this afternoon or not, but I do care about Terri. My soul is hurting for her. Death is not coming for her, but rather eternal life in Heaven, and I hope that her transition is peaceful. Rest Terri. You've earned it. |
| Posted by: Shadows 28-Mar-2005, 09:44 PM |
| I keep seeing animals mentioned and how we care for them better then Terry is being cared for.... I have had many of my animals "put down" instead of watching them suffer! If only we felt the same about fellow humans!!! I am willing to bet that their are many out there that are using this argument... treating animals... better that have put down their animals too..So why are we so cruel to our fellow humans and let them suffer ( not just this case ) until they are gone? I see it all boiling down to selfishness and not wanting to let go. DEATH is part of life, one day it will happen to all of us no matter how much we kick and scream! If the believe is of a better afterlife then here on earth why do we continue to keep that from happening to those who are almost there?!?!? |
| Posted by: Annabelle 28-Mar-2005, 10:04 PM |
| Terry Schiavo was truely a person screaming out for help with her eating disorder. There are so many reason's people turn to that lifestyle. Her case is certainly a sad and complicated one. I feel for her family that have to sit there and watch her waste away. |
| Posted by: Macfive 28-Mar-2005, 10:06 PM |
| I agree with some of these posts that it does seem cruel. If this was done to an animal or pet the animal rescue league would have you arrested. But then if we had some sort of euthanization policy that could lead to abuse by the system. Seems like a catch-22. One thing I will say is that the husband seems like an odd bird. Apparently the reason she had the heart attack in the first place was because the husband threatened to leave her in the event she gained weight back. So she went on these weird diets to not gain weight. Well, the hardest thing this past weekend was when my 12 year old son asked me why they were doing this to her. Very hard to explain this to a 12 year old. |
| Posted by: mingkee 29-Mar-2005, 06:44 AM |
| the feeding tube must be removed ONLY when 3 or more doctors declare the brain stem is dead let's see, did Terry commit murder? smuggle drugs? any felony??? if the answer is "no" on above, why she has to suffer on the way to death?! life support should be connected, if the doctor lets her go, simply put the poison, she will be dead in minutes would anybody try to fast in 7 days? |
| Posted by: CoyoteMoon 30-Mar-2005, 07:17 PM |
| [COLOR=purple]There is much validity to the posts here & I don't want to argue a one. However, my mother passed away last August &, in an act of gross neglect by a ruthless nurse, she had her oxygen & IV removed (not what the doc ordered BTW). She was without these less than 12 hrs. &, when my father & I returned to her bedside, her skin was rough & chapped, as were her lips, her tongue was sticking to the roof of her mouth, the room smelled of B vitamins (kidneys were failing), & her eyes lacked the moisture to open & close. (This nurse also failed to give her pain med regularly & I'm currently in a bit of "debate" with the hospital over all this.) All she could do was moan in pain. Needless to say, this experience gave me a perspective slightly different than my usual -- which is to say the rule of law must prevail. I have a bit of an argument with the post that seems to infer that it is the "Christians" that are fighting this. I am not Christian, although my mother was a devout Roman Catholic, & I will say this is not a humane exit from this world. My comment to the hospital that had my mother was that putting a pillow over her face was far more humane. I also have questions re: Michael's "delay" in "remembering" her wishes, which only seem to come to the surface after he had begun his current "relationship." If I were laying there, I would much rather have my blood family making decisions than some man who made $1 million on my conditon. There are way too many questions here, including why the Shiavo's were not advised to file a divorce on her behalf 7 yrs. ago. It seems to me their legal representation has lacked in great measure. Hope this hasn't offended anyone but it is an interesting topic & one that will lead to more people spelling out wishes ahead of time, including provisions for a philandering spouse. |
| Posted by: Elly 31-Mar-2005, 03:28 AM |
| I recently had to get my dog put to sleep, as he had a cancerous disease and I did not want to watch him starving to death, so I made that decision, it was one of the hardest things I have ever had to pluck up the courage to do, to a beloved four legged friend, rather than see him suffering. So to have to watch a beloved daughter being starved to death, must be horrific, if the husband is so adamant that this is his wife`s wish, surely to god they could find an easier way, it just seems so bloody barbaric to me and I`m sure to any decent person. |
| Posted by: MDF3530 31-Mar-2005, 05:05 PM |
| I heard the news this morning that Terri Schiavo had passed away. Here's what the right-wingers have most likely been thinking. Terri Schiavo did not die of malnutrition due to her feeding tube being removed. She died because godless liberals and activist judges wanted it. A few points: 1. In the case of no living will, the courts will, the majority of the time, rule in favor of the spouse over the patient's family. 2. The Schindler family could not provide any proof to dispute Michael Schiavo's claim that Terri told him that she did not want to be kept alive by any artificial means. 3. In terms of treatment, I believe the Schindlers were expecting a miracle from God. |
| Posted by: EMTQueen 31-Mar-2005, 08:24 PM |
| I have to agree with MDF3530. But really, who besides me think that this is nobody's bloody business except for the family's? Nobody had the right to poke their nose into this. This was painful enough for them without having the general public making assumptions based on shaky facts. |
| Posted by: Shadows 31-Mar-2005, 09:23 PM |
| The public concerns and interest did not scare me as much as the Federal Government sticking their nose into it!!! |
| Posted by: mingkee 31-Mar-2005, 10:10 PM |
| Shame on United States! Terry is dead, but the rebate sounds endless btw, if I was Terry, I'll tell the doctor in his/her dream to kill me immediately by putting shot |
| Posted by: EMTQueen 31-Mar-2005, 11:17 PM | ||
We discussed this case in my Social Problems class. It is a frightening prospect of the federal government poking its nose in a private and painful decision. |
| Posted by: Shadows 31-Mar-2005, 11:21 PM |
| All I can say is brace yourself for more of the same, EMTQueen! ... not shame on the USA but shame on those who put this regime in power that think they can control personal matters by making unsound laws and interceeding where they have no right to go, mingkee ! |
| Posted by: Irish Stepper 31-Mar-2005, 11:38 PM |
| The Federal Gov't didn't stick their nose into it until the parents pleaded for them to help. Same goes for the public. The parents brought the public into this by being so open about their situation. |
| Posted by: Fiddler 03-Apr-2005, 06:07 AM |
| I have purposely steered clear of this case because of the emotions it stirs up.There are so many unanswered questions. Most of them caused by emotion elevating news reports favoring one position or another. Why did it take fifteen years for the husband to push for starvation? Why does a reportedly normal individual suddenly develope bulimia? A lawyer for the family is touting a report produced by the doctor at terries rehab center the describes some yet unexplained broken bone. How and when did that happen. Why is the husband adamant about cremation? Life is very complicated. The passage from this life to the next should not be! |
| Posted by: CoyoteMoon 03-Apr-2005, 09:13 AM |
| There are many unanswered questions in this case & ones that need to be addressed when not connected to any particular individual. I am one that tends to believe strongly in the rule of law but this case shows the need to look at the individual as well. Michael had moved on; it took him 7 yrs to proclaim this was Terri's wish. Apparently there were multiple broken bones. After watching Terri & the Pope, both so close together & both having many similarities with my mother, there is something here that's just not right. My faith teaches me everything for a reason, as well as "what goes around comes around," or karma. There needs to be something in place re: philandering spouses -- he had a new life &, to me, relinquished his rights at that point. Much of the "evidence" Terri's parents had was not admitted; the judge received a large donation from Michael's lawyer & belonged to a group they shared in common. This smells of foul play & our court system failed here. Judges are supposed to interpret, not legislate from the bench. While I agree the feds really pushed the mark when they attempted to intervene, I would do the same if I felt justice was not being served. To proclaim this is a "liberal" v. "conservative" issue is a fallacy as I am quite liberal but, over the years, I have seen that ideal usurped by power-hungry politicians. I have supported intervention on behalf of Tibet for my entire adult life yet no one has stepped up for these people. We must stand for those without voice, although I'd prefer to see ways other than war, & someone needed to stand up for Terri. It was pushed as far as it legally could but, in the end, they needed to respect the laws' limits & did. I hope we have the intelligence & foresight to change this law when it comes to similar cases & remove from the equation those whose interests lay elsewhere. |
| Posted by: Shamalama 04-Apr-2005, 09:10 AM |
| PLEASE EVERYONE, please spend the $50 and buy yourselves a will-making program. I have one that my bride and I have already used. I bought one for my Mom. I use "Home & Business Lawyer Deluxe 2005" by Bluecase/Broderbund Software, but there are many good ones out there ("Quicken Family Lawwyer" is another good one). I am pleading that my adult kids go ahead now and create some documents because YOU NEVER KNOW what could happen tomorrow. Why make your loved ones have one more decision to make after your death? 15 years ago when Terri went into her physical state few people had will-making programs, and few had personal computers. Give Terri's death some worth by everyone at CelticRadio printing out a Living Will, a Durable Power of Attorney, and an Organ Donation form. Keep these close by in case something bad and quick happens to you so that the EMT's/hospital will know your wishes. Talk with your spouse/kids/parents so that EVERYONE is aware of your wishes. Terri is now gone. The media will disperse and flock to tomorrow's "event of the day" - and I am happy. This became a media circus, a liberal-vs.-conservative fight, a court-vs.-legislature fight, a right-to-live-vs.-the-right-to-die fight, and I would bet that this is not what Terri would have wanted. Everything becase so emotionally charged and ugly. There are those here at CelticRadio that have had to stay out of this thread lest they lose control say something they might regret later. Life is so short for all of us, and yet we waste so much of it. Any one of us could die today, and what have we done in the last few days that have made our lives worth living? What love have we shared with an un-loveable, what clothing have we given to the poor, what meal have we delivered to a shut-in? |
| Posted by: CoyoteMoon 04-Apr-2005, 09:39 AM |
| What an excellent suggestion, Shamalama! Here I have Family Lawyer sitting right here, which was used while my mom was still with us, & it was less than $5 delivered! Points on the Shiavo case could (& probably will) be argued for years to come & this is the simple way to avoid such a public mess. Speaking as a female who has been single for 25 years, the positive thing for me was that it forced me to consider something I hadn't previously & perhaps that is the lesson for us all. Maybe she had a lesson (or lessons) to impart to us all &, for that, I am grateful to her. |
| Posted by: bubba 05-Apr-2005, 10:25 AM |
| Having followed this quite a bit, the entire fuss began when the jury award was made. Terris fathers first remark was "How much do I get". When he was told he didn't get any money the fight was on. What isn't mentioned very much is Michael Schiavo put the $300,000 he was awarded separately into the fund for Terris care. Now, given the way Tom DeLay and Congress improperly intervened and DeLays demands to essentially put the courts under Congressional control, doesn't anyone else smell a very large rat? The judges didn't write these laws, Congress and State legislatures did. Judges are bound to uphold the laws. In principle the courts are a check on Congress and the far right is trying to use the emotion in this case to remove that check on their power in Congress. This case was sensationalized deliberately with a goal in mind and saving Terri Schiavo wasn't it. It was a cynical ploy to use peoples emotions to further a political agenda seeking to further expand Congressional autonomy and distract the public from more serious issues facing our country and get attention off politicians that are facing some serious ethical problems. One needs to look at the entire picture, not just one part of it. |
| Posted by: bubba 05-Apr-2005, 10:29 AM | ||
Much more important than a living will, establish a durable power of attorney. A living will can easily be contested and can even be overturned but a durable power of attorney grants without reservation the final decision to someone you fully trust to carry out your wishes. |
| Posted by: CoyoteMoon 05-Apr-2005, 05:23 PM |
| As a former Project Censored researcher & one who has spent most of my working life doing research (& still do as a consumer advocate), I will agree that there's more than meets the eye here. However, I see many political agendas being interjected but there are some facts which speak volumes. Of the $300k awarded Terri, there is approximate $70k left yet the tab has been picked up by Medicaid for 2+ yrs (leaving one yr. paid out of the trust); M.S. received a $3 million judgment. While we are on the subject of what the courts are supposed to do in principal, why is it the courts overturn voter's decisions? (As someone who spent 40 yrs. in Calif, I am quite familiar with the way voter decisions are ursurped by courts. Add another 10 spent between AZ & NM & I've seen the same thing, although not much in the latter as the ACLU is a dog that won't bite there, which is a shame as the public is placed at risk daily by incompetence & violations of civil liberties.) Emotions run high on both sides here & I'm really sick of hearing the "liberal v. conservative" line as this case doesn't fall into it. I agree money appears to be at the root but there is a whole lot here that doesn't make sense. It would be great to agree to disagree as those who care to believe it's some kind of right-wing conspiracy don't want their minds changed, regardless of the facts. Do a bit more digging & you'll see it's a whole lot more complicated than he said, she said, they said, or what's law. CNN & FNC are not telling all. |
| Posted by: bubba 05-Apr-2005, 05:45 PM |
| Coyotemoon, I agree this is much more than a left vs right issue. IMO, money is at the heart of it with the political 3 ring circus added to push agendas. Families face this kind of decision every day and there's no comment. Why is the Schiavo case such an exception? What made Terri Schiavos life so much more valuable than Sun Hudsons? There is a great deal going on indeed. The most dispicable use of it has been made by Congress. As for the courts over ruling voters, well, what are they to do when a referrendum is passed that conflicts with existing law and precident? On the Federal level Congress has to repeal older law that conflicts if the new law is to stand. It's their job and one they don't do. Nothing about law is as simple as it could and should be. |
| Posted by: Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 05-Apr-2005, 08:22 PM |
| I'm not in Florida, so cannot form a firm conclusion about what was really behind the Schiavo case, but have noted that there is at least some evidence that the "Church of Scientology," was heavily involved in the case, and may have been using the case to forward what it's opponents claim is an agenda to euthanize anyone, including the disabled, whose life is not considered worthy of living. I don't know enough about Scientology to form any real conclusions about the claim, but those who are interested may want to look at some of the links at http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1158660/posts? |
| Posted by: EMTQueen 05-Apr-2005, 09:18 PM |
| Scientology is insane. I'm pretty sure it falls under the "cult" category. I mean no offense to anybody who is a Scientologist. |
| Posted by: bubba 05-Apr-2005, 11:45 PM |
| Some people tried to connect this with euthanasia, but it doesn't wash. It still came down to the decision of the legal next of kin. It came down to a matter of existing law with the exception of some lunatic Congressmen sticking their noses in a State matter. I know if I was in her condition I'd hope someone had enough humanity to give me a lethal injection and end it fast. |
| Posted by: Shamalama 07-Apr-2005, 07:53 AM |
| Why was Jack Kevorkian put in prison? Yes, he acted in contrast to the letter of the law, but was what he did a crime? Should his services been made available to Terri 10 years ago? |
| Posted by: bubba 07-Apr-2005, 09:04 AM |
| Shama, the difference is in the Schiavo case it was removal of support whil in Kavorkians case it was injecting a lethal compound. Passive vs active. |
| Posted by: deckers 07-Apr-2005, 09:44 AM |
| What most people haven't realized or commented on (not just here, but everywhere) is that Michael Schiavo is the legal guardian in this case. Whatever his motives were, the parents should not have been able to intervene. They could for all kinds of emotional reasons -- love for their daughter, etc. -- but legally, they had no right to. And don't forget the politicians who sought to politicize the entire affair. The legal counsel for Senator Mel Martinez just resigned yesterday after it was revealed that he was the one who wrote the memo discussing how the Republicans could use this controversy to further their own ends. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32554-2005Apr6.htmlhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32554-2005Apr6.html Just my two cents. Erik |
| Posted by: Shamalama 11-Apr-2005, 12:20 PM | ||
This is one of the things I'm debating my reflection in the mirror about. Certainly the removal of food was done to "allow" her to die (or finish off dying). It was the absolute removal of one of life's necessities. But what would the public say if she were put in an air-tight chamber and then have all the air removed? And, for the sake of arguement, you could remove the air from the chamber at any rate (over the course of 13 days, or all in an instant). Would that still be passive as opposed to Kevorkian's active acts? And, Brother Deckers, I'm also debating myself on the "Michael Schiavo is the legal guardian" idea. In child abuse cases we have the parent as the legal guardian of the abused children, yet the courts step in because society is "speaking for those without a voice". One of the arguements about this case is "what did Terri really want?", seeing how there was no direct proof either way. Should the courts step in and "rescue" Terri? Personally I think Terri, today, has all the rescue she will ever want now that she's in heaven. There's an article at Nebraska StatePaper.com that I think really sums it up: "More Losers Than Winners In Schiavo Case" http://nebraska.statepaper.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/04/08/42568f9585c0c Shamalama says: - Kevorkian should be out of jail - The waters got so muddy so long ago in the Terri Schiavo case that we won't know for many years what the truth really was, and by then it will be too late to do anything about it. Today only Terri has any peace. - Shamalama's living will and durable power of attorney will prevent this from happening to himself |
| Posted by: Shadows 11-Apr-2005, 02:27 PM |
| I for one think this issue should be put to rest just like Terry! It never should have been open to public debate, and the government should never have become involved!!! Rest In Peace Terry and this issue. We all know what we need to do to prevent this from happening to us! JUST DO IT! |
| Posted by: CoyoteMoon 11-Apr-2005, 03:04 PM |
| Until one "walks a mile," one can't know what this is about. I watched my mother be dehydrated to death -- against docs & family's wishes -- & there wasn't anything peaceful about it! If our gov't can't stand up for those who are unable to protect themselves, then it's high time the voters vote them out as WE ARE the gov't. Should children who are abused by their parents be ignored since it's the parents' right? I think not. Passive torture is no excuse as I think a shot or even a pillow would've been more humane for my mother. Within 12 hrs, my mother's lids were sticking to her eyeballs, her skin became rough & chapped, her tongue stuck to the roof of her mouth & all she could do was moan in pain. Add to all this the terrible stench that accompanies kidney failure via dehydration & you might have an appropriate pix. A cheating spouse is not an appropriate legal guardian for anyone. If this issue is not debated in a public forum, how else are each of us to learn to view from another perspective? Granted, our minds may not be changed but the key here is empathy. I WANT to understand how/why others feel the way they do, just as I feel it's important for others to understand why & how I came to my position, having walked that lousy mile. If the only thing that ever comes of this is for ALL sides (two sides are never half the story) to walk away saying, "I don't agree, but I understand how they got there," then we have come a long way toward a place of mutual respect, which could lead to a place where everyone feels that the greater good is served. And now, Shadows, I will let Terri rest in peace. I will not, however, give up on the fight my mother would have wanted me to partake in (& will haunt my days if I do not). |
| Posted by: Shadows 11-Apr-2005, 03:53 PM |
| I have laid to rest many a close relative and seen the suffering that they have endured... DEATH never was suposed to be pretty! But to prolong that end due to the "feelings" of some is just not right, nor should it be... expecially if the government gets involved! It is a family thing and should remain so with the current laws leading the way... if you don't like it change it if you can. Life does not just mean being kept alive by machine...it involves interaction and meaning. Who are we to stop the process when the creator makes the call to come home... |
| Posted by: Shamalama 12-Apr-2005, 08:42 AM |
| "Life does not just mean being kept alive by machine." Says who? As long as it's you speaking for yourself or your loved ones, then I wholeheartedly agree. But none of us can define life for another person or family. I cannot define what life is for your family, and thus determine when life support should or shoud not be removed from one of your loved ones. Brother Shadows, you are correct in stating, "it is a family thing and should remain so with the current laws leading the way." The problem with Terri's case is that two halves of her family had different opinions. Therefore the government or the courts are required to step in and settle the issue. Settling an issue between parties is exactly what the courts were designed for, and the legislature is the body that sets the parameters that the courts must abide by. So the government is involved anytime there is a dispute, whether we like it or not. The husband is wanting one thing, and the family is wanting another, so some other party has to settle the dispute. The circumstances surrounding Terri Schiavo's death raised profound questions about the sanctity of human life and societal responsibility toward the disabled that will resonate for years. No matter what the "talking head doctors" on TV have been saying I have to believe that withholding food and water must be barbaric to the victim. And now we read Sister CoyoteMoon's testimony describing her mother's torture. There's got to be a better way. As it has been said before in this thread, we treat our pets better. It was the media that caused this to be the circus that it became. This type of life or death issue happens every day - for whatever reason the media latched on Terri and her specific situation. If the media really "felt" for the issue then they would be televising the other thousand life or death decisions across the country. Media analysts looked at all 31 evening news stories aired from Thursday, March 17, when the impending removal of Mrs. Schiavo?s feeding tube put her case back in the news, through Monday, March 21. - 59% of the soundbites repudiated Congress for acting to permit Mrs. Schiavo?s parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, to bring their case to a federal court before their daughter starves to death. - 60% of the soundbites (including reporter comments) presented Michael Schiavo?s case that Terry Schiavo should die, compared with just two-fifths offering the counter-arguments of her parents. - Not a single story was devoted to a skeptical look at Schiavo and whether he was acting in his wife?s best interests, but all three networks ran stories rejecting Mr. and Mrs. Schindler?s view that their daughter could possibly be helped. - ABC?s Dr. Tim Johnson summarized that "the conventional wisdom, by experts in this field, is that after five years in a persistent vegetative state, there is virtually no chance for recovery." NBC showed Dr. Robert Cranford, who has examined Mrs. Schiavo. He said that in spite of how she appears on videotape, "she?s as unconscious as someone who is dead." None of the broadcast network stories showed even one dissenting expert. - For decades, the Rev. Jesse Jackson has been a magnet for media coverage. But on the day the Reverend arrived in Florida to put a Democratic face on the side of Terri Schiavo?s parents pleading for her life, he seemed to lose his powers of attraction. NBC partially featured Jackson, CBS gave Jackson only 22 words, and ABC was uncharacteristically quiet about Jackson. The media had an agenda here, and they used Terri for their own purposes. |
| Posted by: Swanny 12-Apr-2005, 09:13 AM |
| I'll warn you straight up than I'm passionate about this issue. My wife of 20 years died last weekend in large part because she demanded that her health care providers adhere to her wishes (she was a Jehovah's Witness, I am not). Her mother and siblings have "issues" with her beliefs which I have had to try to address. Had they had the opportunity to interfere they would have forced blood transfusions onto her in spite of her deeply held religious beliefs. Meanwhile, the Schiavo story has been the media's "baby" throughout my wife's illness and death. I thank the devine Creator that Shiloh had made her wishes known to many people, in writing as well as in conversation. I also thank the Creator that she did not suffer Mrs. Schiavo's fate. Her death was quite sudden and irreversible, just as she would have preferred. By biblical law as well as secular law, when Terri and Michael were married they became an entity indepent from their parents. By both biblical law and secular law, the decisions that needed to be made for Terri fell upon Michaels shoulders, regardless of his motives. I agree that the media put the Schiavo case into the limelight, but it became a circus only because millions of well-intended people who as total strangers to the Schiavo family seem to think that they know Terri's wishes more intimately than did her husband. Mrs. Schiavo's health care decisions became Michaels business, and that of no one elses. Not my business and not your business. Maybe it's time the allegedly "good people" of America started minding our own affairs, and leaving alone the affairs of others. Swanny |
| Posted by: stevenpd 12-Apr-2005, 12:35 PM |
| I'm sorry for your loss, Swanny. In all honesty, I was torn between the two sides of this issue. Constantly vasilating between the two sides. On one hand, I do believe that all life is sacred and should be protected at all times. On the other, allowing her to pass with a little bit of dignity. It is unfortunate that the issue become so convoluted because of the media attention. The emotionalism that was stirred up because of the media attention only prrovided a topic for discussion and left out the humanity. I agree with our position that it is a family decision and not a matter for the courts. Michael Schiavo has/had the final diecision. The concept of marriage is the beginning of a new family. The Bible says that the man shall leave his family and cling to his wife. His wife leaves her family and clings to her husband. As part of the marriage ceramony, the bride is "given away", symbolic of the departure from her family. Overall, the entire issue reeks of polticization of death and in so doing, everyone involved lost some diginity. The only good that can come out of this is the level of awareness that was raised because no one else wants to be a polical football. |