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> One Church, Vatican document on Ecumenism
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royalosiodhachain 
Posted: 17-Jun-2008, 09:52 AM
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DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO



INTRODUCTION

1. The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Christ; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ Himself were divided.(1) Such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages the holy cause of preaching the Gospel to every creature.

But the Lord of Ages wisely and patiently follows out the plan of grace on our behalf, sinners that we are. In recent times more than ever before, He has been rousing divided Christians to remorse over their divisions and to a longing for unity. Everywhere large numbers have felt the impulse of this grace, and among our separated brethren also there increases from day to day the movement, fostered by the grace of the Holy Spirit, for the restoration of unity among all Christians. This movement toward unity is called "ecumenical." Those belong to it who invoke the Triune God and confess Jesus as Lord and Savior, doing this not merely as individuals but also as corporate bodies. For almost everyone regards the body in which he has heard the Gospel as his Church and indeed, God's Church. All however, though in different ways, long for the one visible Church of God, a Church truly universal and set forth into the world that the world may be converted to the Gospel and so be saved, to the glory of God

I am looking for feedback on this topic from faithful Catholic's as I wish to find out what is your interpretation of this Vatican document. Please respond freely.
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Patch 
Posted: 17-Jun-2008, 10:46 AM
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Being a Catholic myself, I fail to see the protestant scandal. (please explain further) I thought we Catholics had a lock on scandals!

Slàinte,    

Patch    
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royalosiodhachain 
Posted: 17-Jun-2008, 10:16 PM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 17-Jun-2008, 10:46 AM)
Being a Catholic myself, I fail to see the protestant scandal. (please explain further) I thought we Catholics had a lock on scandals!

Slàinte,    

Patch    

Patch, You wrote, "Being a Catholic myself, I fail to see the protestant scandal. (please explain further) I thought we Catholics had a lock on scandals!"

Slàinte,

Patch

The Eucharist was given to the Apostles by Christ and so handed down the centuries to the church in the Mass. The protestants pretend that they inherited the Eucharist which is utter nonsense as they have no Eucharist, only a fake version of it. Furthermore they believe in a false Christ as the Christ they purport to know does not reside in the Catholic Eucharist (or so they say they believe), therefore they are entirely fakers and as such give scandal to the Catholic church by presenting to the world as corporations a "divided" Christ, not belonging essentially to the Catholic church. Pope Benedict XVI is saying that Christ essentially and solely belongs to the Catholic church and that all other presentations of Eucharist are false and a scandal to the One, True Body and Blood of Christ. Does this make any sense to you? Or are you one of those people that denigrate the entire church over the mistakes of a few Priests? Or would you care to elaborate on the scandal of the Catholic church, I have not heard of one valid scandal that belonged to the "entire" church. I have heard that some of it's members have brought scandal upon themselves and that the church has issued a renouncement of their personal behavior or were you not aware of that renouncement?

Sla'inte, (my computer does not type Irish Celtic)

Royal O'siodhachain
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subhuman 
Posted: 17-Jun-2008, 11:20 PM
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I would strongly urge any moderators to lock this thread before it inevitably turns into a flame-war.


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Patch 
Posted: 18-Jun-2008, 01:09 PM
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QUOTE (royalosiodhachain @ 17-Jun-2008, 04:16 PM)
QUOTE (Patch @ 17-Jun-2008, 10:46 AM)
Being a Catholic myself, I fail to see the protestant scandal. (please explain further)  I thought we Catholics had a lock on scandals!

Slàinte,    

Patch    

Patch, You wrote, "Being a Catholic myself, I fail to see the protestant scandal. (please explain further) I thought we Catholics had a lock on scandals!"

Slàinte,

Patch

The Eucharist was given to the Apostles by Christ and so handed down the centuries to the church in the Mass. The protestants pretend that they inherited the Eucharist which is utter nonsense as they have no Eucharist, only a fake version of it. Furthermore they believe in a false Christ as the Christ they purport to know does not reside in the Catholic Eucharist (or so they say they believe), therefore they are entirely fakers and as such give scandal to the Catholic church by presenting to the world as corporations a "divided" Christ, not belonging essentially to the Catholic church. Pope Benedict XVI is saying that Christ essentially and solely belongs to the Catholic church and that all other presentations of Eucharist are false and a scandal to the One, True Body and Blood of Christ. Does this make any sense to you? Or are you one of those people that denigrate the entire church over the mistakes of a few Priests? Or would you care to elaborate on the scandal of the Catholic church, I have not heard of one valid scandal that belonged to the "entire" church. I have heard that some of it's members have brought scandal upon themselves and that the church has issued a renouncement of their personal behavior or were you not aware of that renouncement?

Sla'inte, (my computer does not type Irish Celtic)

Royal O'siodhachain

You are into this much farther than I care to go. Being Catholic, I have no problems with Protestants and the days when a Catholic has been forbidden to enter a Protestant church and attend their are long past. And properly so I might add. I am aware of the scandals of my church as we had one in my local parish. The church is dealing with it's problems and as far as I am concerned that is good enough for now.

Slàinte,    

Patch    
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Patch 
Posted: 18-Jun-2008, 01:21 PM
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QUOTE (subhuman @ 17-Jun-2008, 05:20 PM)
I would strongly urge any moderators to lock this thread before it inevitably turns into a flame-war.

I do not really understand where he is going. I grew up in a mixed religion family (Presbyterian and Catholic) and we got along just fine. There was a lot of light humor on both sides. Today there is material for a lot more. I restrict my humor to my own religion!

Slàinte,    

Patch    
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 18-Jun-2008, 01:45 PM
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The main thing, I believe, is to sort out strong opinions and convictions on the one hand, and unnecessarily insensitive ways to express them on the other. I'm OK with waiting to see where this goes, if it's possible to curb unfounded, inflammatory language like:

"The protestants pretend that they inherited the Eucharist which is utter nonsense as they have no Eucharist, only a fake version of it."

We have strong-minded people here who can give and take a lot of discussion in mutual respect, and at times it can get pretty passionate; but in the overall balance of things, please let's have more light than heat.
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Patch 
Posted: 18-Jun-2008, 02:04 PM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 18-Jun-2008, 07:45 AM)
The main thing, I believe, is to sort out strong opinions and convictions on the one hand, and unnecessarily insensitive ways to express them on the other. I'm OK with waiting to see where this goes, if it's possible to curb unfounded, inflammatory language like:

"The protestants pretend that they inherited the Eucharist which is utter nonsense as they have no Eucharist, only a fake version of it."

We have strong-minded people here who can give and take a lot of discussion in mutual respect, and at times it can get pretty passionate; but in the overall balance of things, please let's have more light than heat.

I suspect we have someone who is either a priest or has been one in the past. Could be wrong though. You are right about the "strong willed" people! I am one!

Slàinte,    

Patch    
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John Clements 
Posted: 18-Jun-2008, 02:05 PM
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Where the issue here? I don’t see it.


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stoirmeil 
Posted: 18-Jun-2008, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE (John Clements @ 18-Jun-2008, 02:05 PM)
Where the issue here? I don’t see it.

For someone who feels strongly about his or her protestant faith, there are elements of dismissiveness here that invalidate the protestant position in an offensive way. Part of the argument seems to be in the service of promoting a unifying movement that would "heal" some of the divisive history -- not such a bad thing in principle -- but it's apparently based on the idea that protestantism is a false break from the only right Christian way to do things, in particular the way to celebrate the highest of the sacraments. And that is both unfounded and sure to cause bad feeling.
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Patch 
Posted: 18-Jun-2008, 02:37 PM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 18-Jun-2008, 08:11 AM)
For someone who feels strongly about his or her protestant faith, there are elements of dismissiveness here that invalidate the protestant position in an offensive way. Part of the argument seems to be in the service of promoting a unifying movement that would "heal" some of the divisive history -- not such a bad thing in principle -- but it's apparently based on the idea that protestantism is a false break from the only right Christian way to do things, in particular the way to celebrate the highest of the sacraments. And that is both unfounded and sure to cause bad feeling.

If I understand the original post correctly, the Catholic church left that position in the early 60's if not the late 50's. I remember when you had to have the permission of the Priest to attend a Protestant service. In my family (since we were mixed up anyway) we pretty much ignored that rule. That practice went by the wayside a long time ago and I can not remember any thing in the teaching of the Catholic Church that states that protestants are inferior. I know from history, we thought we were pretty high and mighty but no more. If we aren't humble now, we should be. Should they start that up again, my financial contributions will dry up!

It will be interesting to see where this goes. I suspect it will wither and die.

Slàinte,    

Patch    
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UlsterScotNutt 
Posted: 18-Jun-2008, 03:29 PM
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Now that we have briefly set out the conditions for ecumenical action and the principles by which it is to be directed, we look with confidence to the future. This Sacred Council exhorts the faithful to refrain from superficiality and imprudent zeal, which can hinder real progress toward unity. Their ecumenical action must be fully and sincerely Catholic, that is to say, faithful to the truth which we have received from the apostles and Fathers of the Church, in harmony with the faith which the Catholic Church has always professed, and at the same time directed toward that fullness to which Our Lord wills His Body to grow in the course of time.

It is the urgent wish of this Holy Council that the measures undertaken by the sons of the Catholic Church should develop in conjunction with those of our separated brethren so that no obstacle be put in the ways of divine Providence and no preconceived judgments impair the future inspirations of the Holy Spirit. The Council moreover professes its awareness that human powers and capacities cannot achieve this holy objective-the reconciling of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ. It is because of this that the Council rests all its hope on the prayer of Christ for the Church, on our Father's love for us, and on the power of the Holy Spirit. "And hope does not disappoint, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us".(42)

Each and all these matters which are set forth in this Decree have been favorably voted on by the Fathers of the Council. And We, by the apostolic authority given Us by Christ and in union with the Fathers, approve, decree and establish them in the Holy Spirit and command that they be promulgated for the glory of God.

Given in Rome at St. Peter's, November 21, 1964


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Patch 
Posted: 18-Jun-2008, 04:05 PM
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I believe there have been at least one council maybe two1 since 1964. One being recent. I had an employee who "looked down on me" after his son's basketball team lost to Bishop Wehrley H.S. (Catholic) in the state basketball finals. He said then and probably believes to this day that I will burn in hell because I am Catholic. Being the humorist that I am I didn't help the situation at all. It didn't bother me then and does not bother me today!

Slàinte,    

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royalosiodhachain 
Posted: 18-Jun-2008, 06:30 PM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 18-Jun-2008, 02:11 PM)
For someone who feels strongly about his or her protestant faith, there are elements of dismissiveness here that invalidate the protestant position in an offensive way. Part of the argument seems to be in the service of promoting a unifying movement that would "heal" some of the divisive history -- not such a bad thing in principle -- but it's apparently based on the idea that protestantism is a false break from the only right Christian way to do things, in particular the way to celebrate the highest of the sacraments. And that is both unfounded and sure to cause bad feeling.

invalidate the protestant position in an offensive way. and that is both unfounded and sure to cause bad feeling. [I]

Question # 1. What is offensive about the fact that the protestant communion is not the Sacred Body and Blood of Christ?

Question #2. What is unfounded about the assertion from the Vatican that the protestant communion is invalid?

Question #3 How do you presume yourself to be a higher authority than the Vatican regarding the validity of the protestant communion?
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CelticRadio 
Posted: 18-Jun-2008, 06:34 PM
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I have renamed this topic. "Protestant Scandal" does not seem appropriate.

Instead, a more meaningful title is "One Church"

Now, I am not a man of the cloth; however, I understand that there use to be one church - the church of Jesus Christ and that all Christianity traces its roots back to this one church.

Perhaps someday all Christians will unite once again under one Church of Christ. Do I see that happening in my life time? Certainly not - changes will need to happen - but it is something that all Christians should really think long and hard about. Someone more knowledgable than myself perhaps can speak to this doctrine?

The differences between Catholics and Protestants are really not that great. We are all Christians and we all believe, pray and worship the same God. I know there are centuries old conflicts, but we need to leave those in the past and unite. I personal find the different versions of Christianity worship enlightening and regularly seek out to experience those different versions. Whether it is Baptist, Catholic or Congregational.

In fact, the town where I live actually shares services between Catholic and Protestant churches. I think this is a wonderful idea and promotes good will.

I do believe that alot can be learned from America and how we don't hold these old grudges against each other any longer. I recently saw an advertisement featuring Rev. Pat Robertson and Rev. Al Sharpen speaking about climate change. That is powerful now!

And any Christian seeing the Pope coming to America, even if they are not Catholic, it is such a moving experience. Perhaps we are already moving closer to each other and don't even know it yet!

Ok, just my two cents! Feel free to disagree with me! biggrin.gif


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