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Was Judge Geer right to remove Terry Schiavo's feeding tube.
yes. [ 17 ]  [44.74%]
no. [ 21 ]  [55.26%]
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CelticRadio 
  Posted on 26-Mar-2005, 07:19 AM
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What is everyone thinking about the Terry Schiavo case in Florida. Seems to be galvanizing the nation and prompting some very strong responses.


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cwa92464 
Posted on 26-Mar-2005, 09:04 AM
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I am sure that I will catch flames for this, but this is my opinion:

1. Always have a WRITTEN living will that states your intentions and keep two copies in different locations--no not the bedroom and bathroom.

2. I wouldn't choose to be in that state; however, without a living will, I believe the tube should be inserted & the parents allowed to care for her.

3. Why the epiphany years after the fact by Michael S? Maybe we can ask the adulterers "girlfriend" and "kids."

4. If in fact this is her wish to die, then let's not sit for days on end as she has a "peaceful" death. Michael wants her to die, then he should be given the means and a deadline to kill her or to shut the hell up.

I don't believe this is a "peaceful" death. Try going without eating a few days. Don't you just feel all warm inside?? Those starving in Africa must be pretty blissful. Why do we think they are in dire straits when they are starving and Terri is having the "time of her life" as she starves. Mixed messages to me.


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Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 
Posted on 26-Mar-2005, 10:17 AM
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QUOTE (cwa92464 @ 26-Mar-2005, 09:04 AM)
I am sure that I will catch flames for this, but this is my opinion:

.

No flames from me.
Having read all the recent judicial opinions, I can't help but wonder whether Mr. Schiavo is a coward who is not doing right by either his current wife or his girl-friend, who seems likely to become his wife as soon as he disposes of Mrs. Schiavo. It seems like the honorable thing for him to do would have been to divorce her, and surrender the guardianship to her parents long ago.
Many years ago, before I gave up the practice of law and went into legal publishing, I noticed a striking pattern in divorce cases. I was working in a legal services office handling domestic relations cases. During interviews with many of the women who were seeking a divorce, I discovered that many decided to seek a divorce only after a new boyfriend decided it was time to get married.
The fact that Mr. Schiavo waited until he had a new family before seeking to have the feeding tube removed strongly suggests to me that his motivation derives more from his new relationship than from any feelings for his wife.


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Swanny 
Posted on 26-Mar-2005, 12:18 PM
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I fall into the opposite camp on this. Early in my career as a paramedic I worked for a company that specialized in interfacility transfers. I've transported similar patients back and forth and back and forth and back and forth from the nursing home to the hospital to the doctor's office to........ I made my wages, the ambulance company made money, the nursing home made money, the hosptial and doctors all made money, and the patients stayed the same until their bodies finally gave out.

I've looked at the video, I've surfed http://www.terrisfight.org and done whatever else I can to become informed. Mrs. Shiavo's CT scan was shown on a special about her case on one of the educational channels the other night, and it clearly scan shows such extensive brain damage that it's miraculous that the brain stem is even functioning enough to keep respiratory and cardiac function intact.

I'm convinced that Terri Schindler is indeed in a so-called "persistent vegetative state". He brain is mush, and the onlything that is going to improve her condition is a miracle. Terri Schiavo is no longer residing in that body, and hasn't resided in there for a long, long time.

That being the case and with no advanced directives from the patient, then it falls upon the patient's spouse to make her medical decisions. If there is no living spouse then the decision falls upon adult siblings. If there are not adult siblings then, and only then, does the decision fall to the parents. I understand that is the law in Florida.

This isn't rocket surgery. This isn't something new, it's a situation that plays out thousands of times each year in the United States. The only thing new about the Schiavo case is that media has advertised it the public has embraced it, and in order to support their own pro-life agenda the "good Christians" have decided to demonize Michael and make this the issue of the week.

My heart goes out to the Schindlers family. They have been grasping at straws for so long now, have endured more than any family should have to endure, but I'm not willing to change the law in oder to ease their pain. Part of life is coping with pain and sorrow.

My heart also goes out to Michael Shiavo. I am amazed that so many allegedly "good Christians" who don't know this man, will never meet this man, and who are basing their actions solely on hearsay and second hand allegations that the courts have long ago found not credible have decided to judge him, vilify him, demonize him, and have done everything except burn him at the cross (though I understand that one self described "Christian" fellow did try to steal a gun in order to murder Mr. Schiavo, thus "saving Terri"). I thought the Christian Bible said something about "Judge not lest ye also be judged". I thought that Jesus himself admonished the self-righteous to be careful judging others, saying "He among you who is without sin, cast the first stone." Apparently I was mistaken.

I thought good Christians were opposed to divorce, but apparently I was mistaken. I now see they are opposed to divorce only so long as the married parties make decisions of which they approve. Good Christians can apparently support divorce if it will further their "cause".

I thought Christians were basically good, forgiving and generous people willing to help ease the suffering of others. Judging from what I've been hearing coming from good Christian mouths on the talk shows, television, and newspaper reports for the past weeks I was clearly mistaken about that.

Quite frankly, if the actions of those opposed to Mr. Shiavo's position are the measure of good Christian charity and behavior then I want nothing to do with it at all and I will pray that God save and protect me from His alleged followers.

Swanny




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Shadows 
Posted on 26-Mar-2005, 10:55 PM
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Swanny I am in total agrement with you on this....

I want to add one thing though...

Terry's own actions put her in this state, she was bolimic (sp), her eating disorder ( as some will call it ) caused her heart to malfunction and her brain to die, this was something she brought on herself and her family. Now the nation is also having to suffer as another rift is opened that never should have gone this far.

Does the name Karen Ann Quinlin ring a bell for anyone?
This nation went through this several decades ago... it brought about the living will laws and the current laws on who has legal rights to make medical decissions fo those unable to do so.


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Shamalama 
Posted on 28-Mar-2005, 03:25 PM
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Brother Shadows is correct in this little-reported fact: Terri brought this upon herself.

Terri suffered from an eating disorder known as bulimia. The disease causes its victims to overeat and soon thereafter vomit. The cycle of binging and purging is extremely dangerous. The human heart, to work properly, requires a balance of the body's electrolytes. Vomiting can upset the electrolyte balance and cause abnormal heart rhythms that can lead to heart attack. That is what happened to Terri. One night Terri purged, which caused her potassium level to drop low enough to cause a heart attack. Before fire rescue arrived and took her to the hospital, Terri's brain had been deprived of oxygen for long enough to produce catastrophic brain damage.

She essentially died but was resuscitated, though not entirely. This is the exact point when, I think both sides would agree, that Terri should have been left alone, but with all the tumultous emotions it becomes so very difficult to make the "right" decision. Her brain had suffered enormous damage from the heart attack. As time passed, her brain further deteriorated to the point where much if not most of her cerebral cortex (the portion of the brain that controls conscious thought, among other things) was literally gone, replaced by spinal fluid. That's right - her skull is filled mostly with fluid.

In November 1992, a jury in Clearwater returned a verdict in favor of Terri and Michael Schiavo for more than $6.8-million. The jury found that Terri had been the victim of substandard medical care that caused, in part, her coma. The jury also found that Terri was partly at fault and the verdict was reduced accordingly, to about $2-million.

Since 1990, she has lived in nursing homes with constant care. She is fed and hydrated by tubes. The staff changes her diapers regularly. She has had numerous health problems, but none have been life threatening.

There have been a number of trials on this issue. Both sides were given opportunities to present their views and the evidence supporting those views. Multiple courts determined that, even applying the "clear and convincing evidence" standard - the highest burden of proof used in civil cases - the evidence showed that Terri would not wish to continue life-prolonging measures. Whether we like it or not, whether the Governor of Florida likes it or not, whether the Pope likes it or not, the evidence showed that Terri would not wish to continue life-prolonging measures, and those are defined in Florida law as, among other things, "artificially provided sustenance and hydration".

Michael lacks the power to undo the court order determining Terri's wishes and requiring the removal of her feeding tube. He did not make the decision and cannot unmake it. The court made the decision on Terri's behalf.

Please read this again: The court made the decision on Terri's behalf.

It is difficult for any physician to determine whether this poor woman is feeling any pain. The regions of the brain which are largely responsible for processing pain stimuli are approximately midway between the upper and lower brain regions and no type of brain scan or EEG can be helpful in determining her level of pain. Unfortunately, if there is any pain, then she likely has great difficulty in communicating to others that she is in pain/distress, which for all we know might be severe and excruciating. Since she cannot communicate consistantly with her loved ones, what if she's been in excruciating pain for most of the last 15 years?

Terri is not being "allowed to die". Terri is not dying from anything other than a lack of food and water, from which any of the rest of us would die. She is not dying a natural death. She is being killed. No different than some of the Jews in Nazi Germany. The only question is "Can she feel it?"

In determining the degree of medical intervention, it is best, in my mind, that any physician ignore political and religious dogma, set aside the political ramifications of this case, forget any ulterior financial motives and the adultery of Terri Schiavo?s husband, and honestly try to determine what is the most decent, humane and compassionate approach to take with this fellow human being, Terri Schiavo. We should ignore political and religious dogma too.

According to the Pinellas County Animal Services Sec. 14-32. "Cruelty to animals":
"(a) Whoever impounds or confines any animal in any place and fails to supply the animal during such confinement with a sufficient quantity of good and wholesome food and water shall be in violation of this article."
It goes on to give the penalties for such a violation. In our modern day
realization that the electric chair and gas chamber were cruel and unusual punishment we now afford heinous criminals the dignity to die quick and without pain. Yet one of our most vulnerable, helpless citizens of this country who has far more worth than a dog and who has committed no crime has not been affordrd this humane treatment. How can we look other countries in the eye and accuse them of human rights violations?

Carla Sauer Iyer, a nurse who attended Mrs. Schiavo for more than a year, said in a sworn statement that she reported to the police that she had found Terri in both medical and emotional distress after a closed door visit by her husband - and that she also found a vial of insulin, as well as needle marks on Terri, after Michael Schiavo's visit. Why didn't this factiod make it to the mainstream media?

There is a link here to abortion with all its ugly political and moral mess. There are many that are demanding Terri to be left on the feeding tube that also are demanding that abortion be made illegal. And there are many that are both wanting Terri to be left alone to die and also are wanting mothers to be left alone to do what they want with their bodies. It is this unspoken subtext that has added so much fuel to this issue.

Did the courts and medical staff slowly kill her when they removed her feeding tube, or did they simply allow her to do what she already started to do 15 years ago? I don't know.

I do find strange the left's argument that we should not do everything medically possible to keep her breathing. Don't the paramedics do this everyday when they're doing CPR on a non-breathing injury victim? To follow the logic that doctors shouldn't use every possible life-maintaining procedure on Terri should also indicate that we shouldn't use every possible life-maintaining procedure for other people, meaning we could close most of the Emergency Rooms in this country. Or is it your arguement that Terri has "outlived" the necessity of life-maintaining procedures where someone in the ER "still has a chance for a quality life"?

I would certainly hope no one here at CelticRadio would assume the mantle of Arbiter of Defining the Quality of Life.

Supposedly Governor Jeb Bush tried to send a group of agents to "take Schiavo into state custody", even though that would go against court order. Several years ago Attorney General Janet Reno sent a group of agents to "take Elian Gonzales into federal custody", even though that went against court order. I didn't like it when Reno did it, and I wouldn't like it if Bush did it.

Damn it, we are a nation of laws, not religion nor emotion - from either the left or the right. If this really steams you, or really sticks in your gut, then show your disapproval next time at the voting booths. You can't fault the state-appointed courts if you didn't vote for your representative in the first place.

I don't like any of this. I cannot stand to watch the continued video of her sullen face looking helplessly around her. I don't know if she sees anything, or is mentally crying for help. I don't know if she is in fits of hunger pains, or feels absolutely nothing. Personally I don't care if Michael gets run over by a car this afternoon or not, but I do care about Terri. My soul is hurting for her. Death is not coming for her, but rather eternal life in Heaven, and I hope that her transition is peaceful.

Rest Terri. You've earned it.



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Shadows 
Posted on 28-Mar-2005, 10:44 PM
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I keep seeing animals mentioned and how we care for them better then Terry is being cared for....

I have had many of my animals "put down" instead of watching them suffer!

If only we felt the same about fellow humans!!!

I am willing to bet that their are many out there that are using this argument... treating animals... better that have put down their animals too..So why are we so cruel to our fellow humans and let them suffer ( not just this case ) until they are gone?

I see it all boiling down to selfishness and not wanting to let go. DEATH is part of life, one day it will happen to all of us no matter how much we kick and scream! If the believe is of a better afterlife then here on earth why do we continue to keep that from happening to those who are almost there?!?!?

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Annabelle 
Posted on 28-Mar-2005, 11:04 PM
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Terry Schiavo was truely a person screaming out for help with her eating disorder. There are so many reason's people turn to that lifestyle. Her case is certainly a sad and complicated one. I feel for her family that have to sit there and watch her waste away.


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CelticRadio 
Posted on 28-Mar-2005, 11:06 PM
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I agree with some of these posts that it does seem cruel. If this was done to an animal or pet the animal rescue league would have you arrested.

But then if we had some sort of euthanization policy that could lead to abuse by the system. Seems like a catch-22.

One thing I will say is that the husband seems like an odd bird. Apparently the reason she had the heart attack in the first place was because the husband threatened to leave her in the event she gained weight back. So she went on these weird diets to not gain weight.

Well, the hardest thing this past weekend was when my 12 year old son asked me why they were doing this to her. Very hard to explain this to a 12 year old.
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mingkee 
Posted on 29-Mar-2005, 07:44 AM
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the feeding tube must be removed ONLY when 3 or more doctors declare the brain stem is dead
let's see, did Terry commit murder? smuggle drugs? any felony???
if the answer is "no" on above, why she has to suffer on the way to death?!
life support should be connected, if the doctor lets her go, simply put the poison, she will be dead in minutes
would anybody try to fast in 7 days?


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Posted on 30-Mar-2005, 08:17 PM
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[COLOR=purple]There is much validity to the posts here & I don't want to argue a one. However, my mother passed away last August &, in an act of gross neglect by a ruthless nurse, she had her oxygen & IV removed (not what the doc ordered BTW). She was without these less than 12 hrs. &, when my father & I returned to her bedside, her skin was rough & chapped, as were her lips, her tongue was sticking to the roof of her mouth, the room smelled of B vitamins (kidneys were failing), & her eyes lacked the moisture to open & close. (This nurse also failed to give her pain med regularly & I'm currently in a bit of "debate" with the hospital over all this.) All she could do was moan in pain.

Needless to say, this experience gave me a perspective slightly different than my usual -- which is to say the rule of law must prevail. I have a bit of an argument with the post that seems to infer that it is the "Christians" that are fighting this. I am not Christian, although my mother was a devout Roman Catholic, & I will say this is not a humane exit from this world. My comment to the hospital that had my mother was that putting a pillow over her face was far more humane. I also have questions re: Michael's "delay" in "remembering" her wishes, which only seem to come to the surface after he had begun his current "relationship." If I were laying there, I would much rather have my blood family making decisions than some man who made $1 million on my conditon. There are way too many questions here, including why the Shiavo's were not advised to file a divorce on her behalf 7 yrs. ago. It seems to me their legal representation has lacked in great measure.

Hope this hasn't offended anyone but it is an interesting topic & one that will lead to more people spelling out wishes ahead of time, including provisions for a philandering spouse.
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Elly 
Posted on 31-Mar-2005, 04:28 AM
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I recently had to get my dog put to sleep, as he had a cancerous disease and I did not want to watch him starving to death, so I made that decision, it was one of the hardest things I have ever had to pluck up the courage to do, to a beloved four legged friend, rather than see him suffering.

So to have to watch a beloved daughter being starved to death, must be horrific, if the husband is so adamant that this is his wife`s wish, surely to god they could find an easier way, it just seems so bloody barbaric to me and I`m sure to any decent person.
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MDF3530 
  Posted on 31-Mar-2005, 06:05 PM
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I heard the news this morning that Terri Schiavo had passed away.

Here's what the right-wingers have most likely been thinking.

Terri Schiavo did not die of malnutrition due to her feeding tube being removed. She died because godless liberals and activist judges wanted it.

A few points:

1. In the case of no living will, the courts will, the majority of the time, rule in favor of the spouse over the patient's family.

2. The Schindler family could not provide any proof to dispute Michael Schiavo's claim that Terri told him that she did not want to be kept alive by any artificial means.

3. In terms of treatment, I believe the Schindlers were expecting a miracle from God.


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EMTQueen 
Posted on 31-Mar-2005, 09:24 PM
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I have to agree with MDF3530. But really, who besides me think that this is nobody's bloody business except for the family's? Nobody had the right to poke their nose into this. This was painful enough for them without having the general public making assumptions based on shaky facts.
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Shadows 
Posted on 31-Mar-2005, 10:23 PM
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The public concerns and interest did not scare me as much as the Federal Government sticking their nose into it!!!
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