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Patch 
Posted: 07-Jun-2009, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 07-Jun-2009, 01:53 PM)
QUOTE (MacEoghainn @ 06-Jun-2009, 06:49 PM)
The individual possession of a firearm is not generally a preventive action, instead it is preparatory in nature. Societal attitudes on the possession of firearms do have an effect on the actions of those people who tend toward lawless behavior. Read John Lott's "More Guns, Less Crime" for a statical analysis.

Example: The logic for carrying a firearm for self defense is the same logic used for having a spare tire, tire-iron, and jack in your car. Most folks don't plan on having a flat tire and their preference would be to call for road service and have a mechanic change the tire if they did have a flat. But if you find yourself in a location where there isn't any help available, or they aren't going to arrive in a timely manner, then you are going to need that spare and tools to get yourself out of the situation you find yourself in.

On the surface this sounds logical, but mechanical obsolescence is inevitable whereas criminal victimization is not. A similar pseudo logic is applied to idea that computer models prove that catastrophic events due to global warming are inevitable and we should therefore take strong measures to prevent such catastrophe. No future event is proven, it hasn't happened yet. You can take whatever preparatory measures you wish of course, but you cannot prevent a hypothetical event, so what you're preparing for is a mere idea in your mind. Whenever you attempt to prevent something you must make some evaluation of the likelihood of occurance or waste your time. That likelihood will vary statistically of course, but to correlate positively that a non-event is being prevented by your ownership of a gun is unprovable. It will always remain conjectural.

I have worked in all but two states that recently enacted concealed carry and am working in 4 more at this moment. EVERY state that has enacted carry laws has seen substantial to drastic reductions in violent crime. This is verified by FBI, state and local police records. They show the crime rates before and after carry laws are enacted. Do you believe they falsify those records? If so you are using many words but are a bit short on logic and common sense. Any statistics from private sources by the way are worthless. An Ohio city (Toledo) was strongly anti firearm. In the last several months the Mayor and Chief of Police have advised the public that they should plan for their own safety as the police were unable to do so!

That is something to think about!

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Patch 
Posted: 07-Jun-2009, 04:41 PM
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QUOTE (RedWeasel @ 07-Jun-2009, 02:09 PM)

Perhaps this so, BUT the opposite is a proven.
When governments legislate guns out of the hands of the private citizen, crime has ALWAYS been shown to rise dramatically!

Those countries that have restricted firearm ownership have proven, with their own statistics, that violent crime rose drastically as firearms were turned it.

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Antwn 
Posted: 08-Jun-2009, 10:16 AM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 07-Jun-2009, 04:41 PM)
QUOTE (RedWeasel @ 07-Jun-2009, 02:09 PM)

Perhaps this so, BUT the opposite is a proven.
When governments legislate guns out of the hands of the private citizen, crime has ALWAYS been shown to rise dramatically!

Those countries that have restricted firearm ownership have proven, with their own statistics, that violent crime rose drastically as firearms were turned it.

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Patch    

Correlation is not causation.


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Patch 
Posted: 08-Jun-2009, 11:06 AM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 08-Jun-2009, 11:16 AM)
QUOTE (Patch @ 07-Jun-2009, 04:41 PM)
QUOTE (RedWeasel @ 07-Jun-2009, 02:09 PM)

Perhaps this so, BUT the opposite is a proven.
When governments legislate guns out of the hands of the private citizen, crime has ALWAYS been shown to rise dramatically!

Those countries that have restricted firearm ownership have proven, with their own statistics, that violent crime rose drastically as firearms were turned it.

Slàinte,    

Patch    

Correlation is not causation.

Using logical thinking and common sense one finds crime IS a direct result of firearm laws and all govt's involved admit it! The UK and Australia come to mind. Wherever you live, if you go out in public, you are around people who are legally carrying firearms. This includes California, New York and Massachusetts. Even in the UK and Australia it is possible to get a carry permit if you have political connections.

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Taliesin 
Posted: 08-Jun-2009, 11:48 AM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 08-Jun-2009, 08:16 AM)
Correlation is not causation.

A point of logic: Correlation MAY be causation, but does not PROVE it. A distinction I feel is important, here. Statistically speaking, there MAY be an unknown factor causing the negative correlation between crime rates and and individual gun ownership.

Out of curiosity, what would you accept as proof that allowing individual gun ownership CAUSES crime rates to drop, and that the converse is also true?


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Patch 
Posted: 09-Jun-2009, 12:08 PM
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This is the latest bill we are working on.

Representative Danny Bubp (R-88) of West Union and Rep. Jarrod Martin (R-70) of Beavercreek have introduced House Bill 203 , which seeks to "allow a concealed carry licensee who is not consuming liquor and is not under the influence to carry a concealed handgun in a retail food establishment or food service operation with any class liquor permit issued for the location."

"The problem of not being able to protect one's family while out to dinner is one of the most common complaints I hear from concealed carry license holders," said Rep. Bubp. "They have proven themselves to be responsible, and there is no reason to think they won't be every bit as responsible while eating dinner as they are in every other aspect of their lives."

What follows is the pertinent language from the bill, with the proposed language underlined:

(old code)

Sec. 2923.121. (A) No person shall possess a firearm in any room in which any person is consuming liquor in premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303. of the Revised Code or in an open air arena for which a permit of that nature has been issued.

(underline denoting changes starts)

(cool.gif(1) This section does not apply to any of the following:
...
(e) Any person who is carrying a valid license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun issued to the person under section 2923.125 or 2923.1213 of the Revised Code or a license to carry a concealed handgun that was issued to the person by another state with which the attorney general has entered into a reciprocity agreement under section 109.69 of the Revised Code and who possesses the firearm in a retail food establishment or food service operation with any class liquor permit issued for that location under Chapter 4303. of the Revised Code, or in a retail store with D-6 and D-8 permits issued for that store under sections 4303.182 and 4303.184 of the Revised Code or a D-8 permit issued for that store under section 4303.184 of the Revised Code, as long as the person is not consuming liquor or under the influence of alcohol or a drug of abuse.
...
(F) As used in division (cool.gif of this section, "retail food establishment" and "food service operation" have the same meanings as in section 3717.01 of the Revised Code.

(underline ends)

A recent unweightred poll gives this bill 72% public support.

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Patch 
Posted: 09-Jun-2009, 12:27 PM
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Breaking news.

Emergency responders are converging on a suburban New York City school where shots were reportedly fired.

Police in Rockland County say that an adult is in custody Tuesday and that Orangetown Middle School in Blauvelt is on lockdown. It appears that no one was injured.

This happened in a state/city with the second most restrictive firearms ownership laws in the U.S.!

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Antwn 
Posted: 10-Jun-2009, 09:57 AM
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QUOTE (Taliesin @ 08-Jun-2009, 11:48 AM)
Out of curiosity, what would you accept as proof that allowing individual gun ownership CAUSES crime rates to drop, and that the converse is also true?

Seems to me there are too many variables to establish a direct cause/effect relationship between prevalence of gun ownership and crime rates, but I doubt that will change anyone's assumptions. This thread is already 49 pages, these arguments are a rehash. Its interesting that among so many possible topics that this one is the longest and that consistes predominately of reiterations.
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Taliesin 
Posted: 10-Jun-2009, 10:59 AM
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My post wasn't a reiteration. I was trying to establish that absolutely nothing that could be said or shown would convince you that individual gun ownership leads to decreased rates of crime. Essentially, there's nothing anyone could say that would convince you, regardless of how much sense it made.

This is the essence of why this thread is so long.

"Look at this example and this example and this example..."

"There could be a third or fourth variable in every single one of those cases, so you have not convinced me."

Sounds like the height of wasted time: Trying to prove to someone who will accept nothing as proof that something is the case.
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Patch 
Posted: 10-Jun-2009, 11:00 AM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 09-Jun-2009, 01:08 PM)
This is the latest bill we are working on.

   

I was just informed that it is likely this will have a favorable floor vote in record time and the Senate is preparing a companion bill to also save time.

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englishmix 
Posted: 10-Jun-2009, 11:12 AM
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Patch 
Posted: 10-Jun-2009, 11:24 AM
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QUOTE (Taliesin @ 10-Jun-2009, 11:59 AM)
My post wasn't a reiteration. I was trying to establish that absolutely nothing that could be said or shown would convince you that individual gun ownership leads to decreased rates of crime. Essentially, there's nothing anyone could say that would convince you, regardless of how much sense it made.

This is the essence of why this thread is so long.

"Look at this example and this example and this example..."

"There could be a third or fourth variable in every single one of those cases, so you have not convinced me."

Sounds like the height of wasted time: Trying to prove to someone who will accept nothing as proof that something is the case.

Your post covers precisely what is taking place here.

Those represent the left to far left (anti second amendment) have provided me with a lot of information useful in getting around certain legislators from time to time

The information I post is for those who are interested. Those with closed minds will continue so until violent crime touches them. When that happens they usually become the most avid supporters of the second amendment assuming they survive. I have quite a number of those instances saved also.

I hope and pray that their belief does not cause serious injury to or cause they or someone close to them to loose their life.

I do not consider the topic nothing but rehashing old posts either. I also would suspect that the size of the topic would say something about the importance given it by MANY. I will try to help it grow.

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Antwn 
Posted: 10-Jun-2009, 01:34 PM
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QUOTE (Taliesin @ 10-Jun-2009, 10:59 AM)
My post wasn't a reiteration. I was trying to establish that absolutely nothing that could be said or shown would convince you that individual gun ownership leads to decreased rates of crime. Essentially, there's nothing anyone could say that would convince you, regardless of how much sense it made.

This is the essence of why this thread is so long.

"Look at this example and this example and this example..."

"There could be a third or fourth variable in every single one of those cases, so you have not convinced me."

Sounds like the height of wasted time: Trying to prove to someone who will accept nothing as proof that something is the case.

I agree about the waste of time, but not for the reason's you've specified. I gave my reasons, you don't consider them any more valid than I consider vague correlatives and ancedotal evidence. After 49 pages the arguments have been covered. That's what I meant. Read them if you doubt. If you guys want to post every news article where some gun was used to defend someone ad infinitum and brag about your personal gun proficiency, knock yourselves out, it doesn't PROVE anything.

The question I asked several posts ago was how the possession of a gun prevents events which haven't happened. Its unanswerable since no one can prove the prevention of a non-event. They could believe it and announce it authoritatively but what would that mean? Nothing. No, I'm not just going to be convinced unless something is convincing, and since we both agree this is a waste of time, I'll leave you all to your repetitions.
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Patch 
Posted: 10-Jun-2009, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE (englishmix @ 10-Jun-2009, 12:12 PM)
Whenever I shoot, I highly recommend controlling one's gun. cool.gif

Excellent advice!

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Dogshirt 
Posted: 10-Jun-2009, 08:36 PM
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QUOTE
If you guys want to post every news article where some gun was used to defend someone ad infinitum and brag about your personal gun proficiency, knock yourselves out, it doesn't PROVE anything.


Actually it DOES, but you and your ilk simply will not accept the facts! We are just talking to the wall.
dry.gif


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