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cori 
Posted: 10-Nov-2004, 04:39 PM
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Just wondering...

Ephesians 1:4 says that God chose the saints before the foundation of the world. But if this is true, then what is the purpose of evnagelism/soul winning? I know that the bible says that "you have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you". But I also know that it is a choice that we make to follow the Christian religion (for lack of a better word).


Slightly confused. unsure.gif


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maryellen 
Posted: 10-Nov-2004, 06:18 PM
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The concept of predestination I think is discussed further in Romans 8:28-30. It was made prominent by St. Augustine. I can tell you that the Catholic viewpoint is that predestination is in the Catholic Catechism. It is in the scripture. We also come to believe there is free will and, this free will is the free response to His grace. God desires all to be saved.
Related to the issue of predestination is the Catholic teaching that the converted can lose their salvation through mortal sin. In speaking of those who have received new life in Christ, the Catechism states that "[t]his new life as a child of God can be weakened and even lost by sin" (Section 1420; see also Section 1861).
We can have a moral assurance of salvation if we maintain faith and keep God's commandments (1 John 2:1-6; 3:19-23; 5:1-3,13)
In sum, Predestination is not predetermination of human will.


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dragonboy3611 
Posted: 11-Nov-2004, 08:47 AM
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QUOTE (maryellen @ 10-Nov-2004, 06:18 PM)
In sum, Predestination is not predetermination of human will.

I agree totally. You have to also remember that god himself did not write the bible. NOT THAT IT MAKES IT ANY LESS HOLY! rolleyes.gif


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cori 
Posted: 11-Nov-2004, 12:23 PM
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QUOTE
In sum, Predestination is not predetermination of human will.


I understand this point, and I see that predestination is not the same thing as God's knowledge ahead of time of what we will choose. This then provokes me to ask, What is predestination?

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dragonboy3611 
Posted: 11-Nov-2004, 02:41 PM
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Umm...eh... death.gif
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cori 
Posted: 12-Nov-2004, 01:20 PM
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unsure.gif

Care to translate that?


I mean, I always thought that predestination was God-knowing-ahead-of-time. But as maryellen says, that is better defined as predetermination. So what is predestination? Is it that God chose us rather than me choosing Him? For it says in John, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." So where does free will come in? Is that theory in the bible or is that something man made up to make himself feel important and just something I've always been presented with?

Does anyone know?
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TheCarolinaScotsman 
Posted: 12-Nov-2004, 03:22 PM
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If a parent were to ask their small child if they would prefer cherry pie or broccoli for a snack, I'm sure that parent could tell you ahead of time which the child will choose. (In the case of my two children, it would have been one pie and one broccoli.) The parent is not forcing the child to choose one or the other, the child is free to choose, but the parent knows the child well enough to know what that choice will be. God is all knowing. He made the universe and everything in it. He is the author of all physical "laws". He perfected the design. He made us and knows us perfectly. He already knows what our choices are, even though He allows us to choose. He knows the results and ramifications of those choices. He knows what our reactions to those results will be. On down the line to the end of time. The past, present and future are all the same in His sight. He perfectly knows the history of every speck of the universe before hand. In Presbyterian doctrine, that is predestination. Predetermination (again, in Presbyterian doctrine) would be taking free will out of the equation. Different denominations may have slightly different meanings or understandings because of differing semantics.


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cori 
Posted: 12-Nov-2004, 06:53 PM
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Thank you. That makes a great deal of sense. I have often attended Presbyterian services, but never have they touched on this score.
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